Timothy Roes2d ago
Martin Seeger

Updated "greek task list":

orphean task: when you almost succeed, but lose everything the moment you turn around to check your progress.

daedalean task: when you’re forced to design something brilliant and functional… that you yourself will inevitably become trapped inside.

medusan task: when your project becomes so horrifying that everyone involved freezes in place rather than deal with it.

tantaline task: when success is right there, but bureaucracy or budget cuts keep snatching it away at the last moment, forever.

pandoran task: when fixing one small issue unleashes a thousand new ones, but hey — at least there’s still hope somewhere in the ticket backlog.

odyssean task: when the assignment technically has an end, but it’s buried under so many side quests that you forget what the original goal was.

narcissian task: when the entire effort is about maintaining appearances rather than achieving anything of substance.

promethean task: when you give people a powerful new tool that could transform their work — and are punished eternally for doing so.

orestian task: when the mess you’re cleaning up is the direct result of the last cleanup you performed.

thesean task: when the only way to finish is to disassemble everything piece by piece — until you’re no longer sure if what’s left is the same project you started.

achillean task: when your work is flawless except for that one fatal oversight that will, inevitably, destroy you.

penelopean task: when you diligently undo by night what you accomplish by day, just to keep the stakeholders pacified.

midasean task: when everything you touch turns into paperwork, compliance documents, or gold-plated nonsense nobody actually needs.

gordian task: not intended to be actually done, but violence is the answer.

Nov 7 at 8:23amWeb
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
This was inspired by a post that reached me as screenshot:
Show threadEva InfeldNov 7
@masek I have a deep belief that we should look at the story of Icarus as a cautionary tale about bad engineering instead. They *could* have built better wings.
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@quaithe Yep, I wish Sam Altman would familiarize himself better with that story ...
Show threadWesDymNov 7
@masek Reading the works doesn't seem to help them. Thiel is obsessed with Tolkien, but doesn't seem to UNDERSTAND Tolkien. He named his own company Palantir, for Christ's sake, very obviously not grasping that the actual object in the tales called that was used by evil people to commit evil. He loves the Tolkien aesthetic, but understands none of the key themes or philosophy that even most teenagers can immediately grasp.
Show threadFoolishOwlNov 7
@wesdym @masek The parts of Tolkien that most of his fans acknowledge as problematic are the only parts Thiel paid attention to.
Show threadWesDymNov 7

@foolishowl I'm sure he's working on genetically engineering eagles as we speak.

But the concerning part for me is that he doesn't understand scripture, either. What it really is and really represents, and what we should and shouldn't take from it. Like someone's grandma who didn't finish school, he thinks it's all true. Instead of the documented mythology of ancient peoples, as literally meaningful as Pokemon or the Marvel universe.

Powerful people filled with delusion are dangerous.

Show threadWilfried KlaebeNov 7

@wesdym Eagles? Not spiders?

@foolishowl

Show threadWesDymNov 7
@foolishowl The palentiri are only problematic to those who don't fully grasp how they fit into the legendarium as Tolkien conceived it, as much as Morgoth (the original villain, in The Silmarillion) did. Like the light and dark sides of the Force, it's all about balance and interplay. On a very deep level, Tolkien's work is an RCC apologetic, an effort to describe reality in those classical motifs.
Show threadWesDymNov 7
@foolishowl On a slightly less heady level, the palantiri can be regarded as an analogue of wireless communication, which was relatively new in Tolkien's lifetime (invented after he was born), and its innate moral neutrality, but powerful potential as a tool for good or evil, and its power to inform but also mislead or deceive.
Show threadFoolishOwlNov 7
@wesdym I was thinking more of The Scouring of the Shire, which can be read as a complaint about industrialization and a story about a community realizing its own strength in communal self-defense. But it's marred by Tolkien's descriptions of the human workers, where there's a more than a hint of xenophobia and possibly racism, and at least loathing for industrial workers.
Show threadPassengerNov 7

@foolishowl @wesdym

There's definitely anti-industrialism and classism in it, but there's also something else: Tolkien wrote it when he was moving towards anarchism after WW2. A lot of it is a horror of "the men of the rules", and of the petty tyrants that love to serve under the grander tyrants.

In the words of our age, Tolkien said ACAB.

Show threadFoolishOwlNov 7

@passenger @wesdym Yes, Tolkien is complex.

What puzzles me most about Tolkien is that he shows such mastery of form in a relatively few published works of fiction. The last tine I read The Two Towers I was amazed at how he sets up the contrast between medieval epic (Gandalf and Aragorn in Rohan) and modern Picaresque (Merry and Pippin in Fangorn).

It takes writers a long time to develop that kind of skill.

Show threadEva InfeldNov 7

@wesdym @foolishowl This makes me think of the Last Ringbearer, which makes all of this very explicit and one of the ways it turns the plot around is that it's the Palantiri, and not the One Ring, that need to be destroyed.

For those who are hearing about it for the first time: it assumes LotR is propaganda written by the victors and proposes a "true history." Definitely a fun read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

The Last Ringbearer - Wikipedia

Show threadWesDymNov 7
@quaithe I've always seen that tale as one of gross user error. The wings worked just fine for Daedalus. Icarus ignored the use warnings he gave him. The system failed the user Icarus because he exceeded the stated use parameters he'd been told, not due to design flaws. Daedalus did the best with what was available to him, and could not have designed them better. They worked as long as you used them the way he said to, and didn't use them the way he said not to.
Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonNov 7
@wesdym @quaithe This is a fundamental flaw in virtually all technology. That is, the failure of designs to recognize:
— people don’t read the user manual, and;
— even if they do RTFM, people use technology in ways that designers did not/could not anticipate.
Show threadEva InfeldNov 7
@meltedcheese @wesdym I agree with David. The way it was taught about in schools was certainly that Icarus was at fault. But I think technologists should look at it and recognise our responsibility.
Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonNov 7
@quaithe @wesdym Thank you. You are a scholar and a gentleman!
Show threadWesDymNov 7

@quaithe In the tale, Daedalus and Icarus are in prison. It's a tale of escaping from prison, with what you have access to there. That imposes inherent constraints on what they can actually DO. They were not in a position do a lot of testing or take bids from vendors.

Daedalus did the best he could with what he had, and made it very clear what the user limits were. He could not have done better. Icarus was just a careless user.

Show threadokanogen VerminEnemyFromWithinNov 28
@quaithe @meltedcheese @wesdym
Idiots are resourceful.
Show threadWesDymNov 28
@Okanogen Make something idiot-proof, and they'll just invent a cleverer idiot.
Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonNov 28
@wesdym @Okanogen A bit more clever, that’s all I ask
Show threadWesDymNov 7

@meltedcheese And what more could a man in prison do? Because you know that's the tale, right? Daedalus and Icarus were in prison. Daedalus fashioned usable -- not ideal, but usable -- wings from what they were able to get, which wasn't much. Seeing as how they were in prison and all. He explained to Icarus what to do and not to do. Not a manual. Direct instruction, as the maker.

It's hard for me to imagine how Icarus's failure can be pinned on him.

Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonNov 7
@wesdym His enthusiasm at being free, not to mention flying, overtook his common sense (if any). Maybe.
Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonNov 8
@wesdym Without context, it is hard to find generalizable guidance in this tale.
Show thread ShalienNov 7
@masek could fucking not hit so much near the truth. It hurt
Show threadDavid Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 7

RE: https://infosec.exchange/@masek/115507493019127678

Cassandrean Task is how I am going to describe every interaction with RISC-V standardisation from now on.

Show threadKevin Huigens🕯Nov 7

@masek

Rumplestiltkin Task: when you're stuck in the dungeon with a spinning wheel and a pile of straw because your father told the king you could spin straw into gold and you have until dawn to do it.

Show threadMre. Dartigen [maker mode]Nov 7
@KevinHuigens @masek I would propose that a Rumpelstiltskinean Task is one that was assigned to you at the last minute, as a result of someone else exaggerating your skill level because they wanted to impress someone else, and the only way you're pulling it off is by recruiting someone else who can do it... but not for free.
Show threadPascalNov 7
@masek œdipian task: when you perform a task that was already done by somebody else before you arrived at this position.
Show threadGeoff CoffeyNov 7
@masek There’s an alternate form of the Odyssian Task called the Ulyssian Task where the side quests are the whole point and you don’t even pretend to have a goal. Just bumming around town all day eating kidneys and philosophizing. It’s my favorite task.
Show threadÖlbaumNov 8
@masek OK, but who’s doing the cassandrean task in the example given? Because they make it sound like it’s the customer service agent, but in my experience it’s almost always the customer.
Show threadKelkyagNov 8
@masek
The original post appears to've been edited, but there are many repost threads with additional tasks. One example: https://weiila.tumblr.com/post/798934139340488704
One crisis at a time, please

the fact that we only have “herculean task” and “sisyphean task” feels so limiting. so here’s a few more tasks for your repertoire icarian task: when you have a task you know you’re going to fail at...

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Show threadʙᴇɴ ᴄᴏᴛᴛᴇяɪʟʟNov 8
@masek Baby niece born last week called Cassandra. When I was told her name said I didn’t believe it.
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 8
@BenCotterill Good news is: her classmates will not know the meaning neither 😏
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
Contributor: @jollyorc
Show threadImpertinenzijaNov 7
@masek Bookmark ist gesetzt, kann nicht garantieren, dass ich nicht klauen werde.
Show threadfilidNov 7
@masek Cassandrian task: you work so long on a project with deep knowledge and warn others that it will fail. But nobody listens to you. Your T-Shirt has a washed out faint „Told you so“
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@filid That was the inspiration: https://infosec.exchange/@masek/115507493019127678
Show threadPaul McO'Smith IIINov 7
@filid @masek that's exceptional! good work!
Show threadfilidNov 7
@masek sysphosian task: An AI enters your job and you see it struggle with the tasks everytime with the mind of a toddler not learning from its mistakes. But you are forced to use this.
Show threadΤο Πιπ 🇵🇸Nov 7
@masek it's truly beautiful how all of them perfectly encapsulate the task of living in Greece
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@mhstoixeiwmenopip If you read the old Greek myths, you always find a surprising amount of modern world in it.
Show threadWesDymNov 7
@masek Doesn't surprise me a bit. Humans don't really change. So human problems don't, either.
Show threadPozorvlakNov 7
@masek Augean task: one that, no matter how cleverly you approach it, will end up with you wading through shit.
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@pozorvlak This is actually already in use German language: https://www.redensarten-index.de/suche.php?suchbegriff=den%2BAugiasstall%2Bausmisten&bool=relevanz&gawoe=an&sp0=rart_ou&sp1=rart_varianten_ou
den Augiasstall ausmisten - Redensarten-Index

✔ Bedeutung ✔ Herkunft ✔ Synonyme der Redensart | Beispielsätze ...zur Verantwortung ziehen und den Augiasstall ausmisten; Der Augiasstall ist noch nicht...

Show threadPozorvlakNov 7
@masek we don't use the exact phrase "Augean task" in English, but "cleaning the Augean stables" is sometimes used as a metaphor: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/augean-stables
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

Dictionary.com
Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@pozorvlak That is the same in German. But it is used as task description quite often ...
Show threadPozorvlakNov 7
@masek I think it's fairly rare these days - I once used it to a colleague, then a bit later they shared their screen so we could pair on some code, and I saw they'd been Googling "Augean" while we talked 😅
Show threadOwlor Nov 7

@masek Orphean task is having ADHD and getting 90% of the way through a project before taking a quick break and promptly putting off finishing it for years.

Promethean task is what I imagine it's like to maintain one of those open source project that the entire modern tech infrastructure relies on but which is maintained by like one guy in their free time.

Show threadMartin SeegerNov 7
@Owlor If you read the old Greek tragedies, they sound rather modern once you update the vocabulary. Achilles is often interpreted as one of the first descriptions of PTSD. Hephaestus sounds as he is on the autism spectrum. The list goes on ...
Show threadOwlor Nov 7
@masek That's something I love about ancient literature, good writers have always had an ear for characterization, so you get figures that are thousands of years old but still feel very relatable cus human nature really haven't changed that much.
Show threadyour auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦Nov 7
@Owlor @masek that’s why i enjoyed the first Percy Jackson novel. am dyslexic and i cried like a baby when i saw how in the movie they dealt with his reading problems as related to a bilinguism he didn’t know he had ―which, btw, *is* one of the theories behind the cause of dyslexia.
Show threadBilly SmithNov 7

@masek

Augean task: Where you are given a shovel, when what is really needed is a firehose. :D

Show threadMarco van Burgsteden 🍋Nov 7
@masek oidipean task: after years of hard work and fighting for your project, you find out that you are the motherf*cker that caused all troubles.
Show threadAndrocatNov 7

@masek

May I suggest one more:

Augean task: Your task is to clean up decades worth of technical debt buildup. Unfortunately there is no river in this metaphorical extension, but there sure is a lot of horseshit.

Show threadZ80 InsideNov 7
@masek procrustean task: when the project gets cut or extended to fit the budget, resources, available workers, latest fashionable technology, etc, until it technically complies with all stated requirements but is absolutely no use to anyone
Show threadjandiNov 7

@raynerlucas @masek Came looking for this one, with my links ready: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/a-sort-of-procrustean-bed.3889820/

Good definition, and thread!

Procrustes - Wikipedia

Show threadFor Pete's Sake  Nov 7
@masek carve this toot on stone in letters a foot high and place it forever in the hall of internet greats as it needs to be kept for all humanity to admire for ever !!
Show threadBiggles 20X6!Nov 7
@masek holy shit this reminded me of Procrustes, and fmd the number of projects I have worked on that are Procrustean...
Show threadSteve PopovichNov 7
@Taco_lad @masek you made your bed, now lie in it. 😀