Is empathy political?
A thread on autistic empathy.
A still-quite-popular belief about autistic people is that we lack empathy.
I think this is faulty logic.
Here's why:
A thread đ§”
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#ActuallyAutistic #Neurodivergent
#DoubleEmpathy #TheoryOfMind
It's true we may lack socially approved ways of expressing fellow-feeling.
Ones that are aware of status and social positioning, and the importance of social performance.
Which could, in a lot of contexts, get read as not caring đ€·ââïž
ButâŠ
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Maybe our empathy just looks different?
I think autistic empathy can be quite practical (if we're not feeling overwhelmed or under pressure).
And genuine - if not always very smoothly expressed.
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When I was young I'd feel awful about myself if certain people expressed sympathy for me, but I hated it.
I thought there was something wrong with me!
Now, I think I was reacting to incongruence... my skin prickling.
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Now I know that a lot of what gets called "empathy" isn't quite that simple.
It can be about showing deference, or superiority. Or virtue signaling.
Pleasing the right people, in the right ways, at the right times. Making yourself look like a good person.
5/10
Now we're onto the topic of power dynamics đ
I've noticed autistic empathy can be rather unorthodox. đ
That could mean feeling compassion for animals, plants, trees, octopuses, sharks, avatars, our plushies⊠or even inanimate objects.
đ§ž
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So perhaps it's about direction of travel?
Service and deference, in society, are meant to flow upwards.
Yet we autistics, it seems, are more likely to feel for the excluded person, the animal or child⊠the spider in the bath, or the earthworm on a sunny road.
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Empathy is usually believed to be a personal virtue, that some people have and others donât.
I don't think that's the whole story.
Itâs also shaped by power. By conditioning. By rewards and punishments. By whoâs allowed to have needs, and who's trained to attend to them.
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Autistic people often don't fit that mold.
We get called rigid, naive, inappropriate. But I think it might be a lot more to do with ethical consistency.
If weâre told honesty matters, we tell the truth. If weâre taught kindness matters, we try to direct it where it seems most needed.
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So perhaps autistic people arenât empathy-impaired at all.
Just misaligned with a social order that expects empathy to be smooth, selective, strategic, performative, and status-aware.
And maybe that's really what gets pathologized.
End of đ§”
Full article, with refs, in the link below.
This isnât just an article explaining how empathy works in autistic people. Itâs is about how empathy works, and doesnât work, in society. The author points out that what we (mainstream society) see as empathy, often isnât really empathy at all, but is purely performative virtue signalling.
Everyone could benefit from reading this article, regardless of their neuro type.
Thank you đđ„°
Interestingly, I got the book "Against empathy", by Paul Bloom, out of my University library last week. I'd highly recommend it, as he goes into the definitions etc. We're basically saying a lot of the same things regarding how empathy gets defined, but just using different words.
Another fascinating thing I've got from the book - which looks at various studies into the matter - is how not having empathy (as currently defined) doesn't result in more violence, cruelty, etc.
My autistic brain says perhaps we are really underestimating the role of logic in social justice and kindness.
And in fact, a lot of what we currently call empathy results in partisanship, and dehumanizing other groups đ€·ââïž
@KatyElphinstone
OhhhâŠ
All of that conflict & cognitive dissonance Iâve experienced over the years⊠đ©
I'm doing a PhD on autism and intergenerational trauma.
@KatyElphinstone @Susan60 Oh, work that needs doing, for sure!
(person with psych PhD)
Iâd love to see more study on autism & ageing. I think Sandra Thom-Jones is doing work on this.
đđđ
I donât know whether your work fascinates me or makes me feel tired. Probably both.
I was a mature aged uni student, studying for years part time, starting in my mid 30s. Unsure what I wanted to be when I grew up. (I still donât know.)
I did an arts degree (history, âwomenâs studiesâ, politics), then a post grad dip in psychology. By then I was getting old & was a single mum & needed to work full time, so went into teaching.
Psych disappointed me because it was all about trying to appear like we were doing ârealâ science. Stats & analysis matter of course, but we were looking at easily measured physiological stuff & failing to adequately address bias & confounds.
I finished my Psych 23 years ago. Hopefully things have improved.
@KatyElphinstone @Susan60 And looking at autistic people aging is incredibly confounded with generation.
I'm in the US, and was born in 1969. Nobody was going to look at a hyperlexic kid skipping grades and ask, "hm, maybe autism?"
The actual autistic behaviors and tellls? "Well, everybody knows geniuses are eccentric." And no follow-up.
I started speculating about being autistic around age 30, and adopted the label around age 50. But lots of trauma in between.
Iâm 65. Was diagnosed ADHD a few years ago. Realise Iâm autistic. Put age & gender together and⊠I was âshyâ, but âoutspokenâ & âopinionatedâ. Had I been born a decade earlier, I probably wouldâve been labelled âneuroticâ in middle age.,
"the role of logic in social justice and kindness" is what many religious people don't understand.
Some religious debates end with the question "why should I act other than selfishly if there is no divine schoolmaster checking whether my behaviour follows the rules?"
And yet when Iâve said that we could simply do the right thing because itâs the right thing to doâŠ
@KatyElphinstone @Susan60
For a while now I've held the belief (more of a conclusion really) that a lot of things like social justice and kindness actually have an objective basis, and that all empathy is is just the emotion that evolution was able to come up with to try and make these things happen (because they confer evolutionary advantage). But like most emotions, it's limited and fuzzy logic, and easily interfered with by other emotions. For humans, it can be interfered with by beliefs and values, but also bolstered with proper logic and evidence. I think that the role empathy has played in human society is to just tip our progress in the favor of improvement (like a 49/51% split), but then we have institutionalized social negatives which are impeding this progress, which is why we see such a mix of good things happening in the world and bad.
I hope that made sense. I haven't been awake long, and I'm condensing a lot into one little message.
Yes, the more I think about it and study it, the more I realise empathy is not this thing that we should put on some throne of idealism.
It's just an ordinary mechanism designed for living together, for survival.
Where was it I read recently...hm... about selfishness. That empathy is selfish, technically. It's just dependent on what you count as the unit - the organism? The gene? The family? The social group? And so on ...
You just reminded me of a conversation I had with my older brother after he got married and had kids. He said to me "When I was your age, I was a socialist like you. (I never called myself that btw, but anyway...) But once you have a family of your own, you'll learn what really matters." I didn't say anything back, for many reasons, but what I wanted to say was something like "That the hormones directing you to protect and provide for your family instead of considering everyone somehow makes you a better person?"
Empathy evolved from humanity's past, when all we had to worry about was the family unit, or the tribe. Getting larger groups to cooperate for the benefit of all requires our capacity for reason because it's harder to do. But unless you have a population that's educated enough, most of them will just default back to their instincts and care more for their in-groups. That's not even getting into the threads of romanticism throughout our culture where you keep hearing the term "family" all the time, like it's the greatest thing ever.
That said, I still think that empathy is useful, it just needs to be properly guided with reason. Like the old saying goes, they are like the shoes on your feet: you can go farther with both than with just one.
The first bit made me laugh. I love it.
I think the word ârelateâ matters here. We care about those we ârelateâ to. For many, that stops at close genetic relations, actually biological ârelativesâ. For some autistics, that ârelateâ applies to anyone for whom we have empathy. If we can relate to how they feel or might feel about something, we empathise, & therefore we care.
Imagine how much better the world would be if everyone just cared a little more about other people?
@KatyElphinstone @Susan60 I relate to this - my brain doesn't process feelings well and instead goes straight to "here's a problem can I fix it?"
This has meant I've simultaneously felt lacking in empathy and been told I have a surfeit of it... đ€
That was me. And the problem here.. well thereâs lots of them.
Thereâs the fact that that thereâs rarely just one solution, & the one we think of or that would best suit us, isnât necessarily what would work best for them.
Thereâs the fact that sitting with how they feel about a problem rather than blocking their feelings or distracting themselves, will motivate them to deal with it, eventually. But my ADHD is impatient, & I have trouble sitting with my own feelings, especially if Iâm not sure what they even areâŠ
Possibly most important is the fact that working out a solution for themselves, possibly with some guidance & support but not explicit direction, is a very important learning exercise & empowering.
And when we⊠I give people advice, even if itâs been requested, it can sound like we donât think theyâre capable of working it out for themselves &/or that we know better. We can be seen as arrogant & judgemental, all because we care enough to want to help!
Simplistic pop-psychology about people being âpeople orientedâ or âtask orientedâ is probably a big factor in the delayed diagnosis/recognition of autism in many adults.
@3TomatoesShort @KatyElphinstone
I think the ways society recognise empathy are deeply flawed.
Ooh I've just looked on your profile and (sorry, slight detour here) I couldn't agree more that transphobic feminism is garbage. I was always astonished that people couldn't see it as a total stitch up...
Patriarchy (rubbing its hands): "let's pit all the marginalized groups against each other... works every time."
@KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
It puts all women on notice that thereâs a certain standard of femininity we need to measure up to, & that we could all be required to prove that we are biologically female at any time.
@HighlandLawyer @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
Yes, but weâve reached a ridiculous point where it can be very difficult to express what we mean. Because weâre afraid of offending someone, or because weâre out of date regarding new terminology.
Iâm a feminist (not trans phobic!), autistic & have rejected simplistic gender roles since I could think. I also have a non-binary adult child whom I love, respect & admire.
Any prejudices I mightâve held as a result of growing up in a homophobic (let alone transphobic) culture have been shed long ago, but it did take time & effort to become aware of them, & to dismantle them.
When my oldest âcame outâ, I hardly knew what non-binary meant. I went on a huge learning curve. Iâd always known they were âdifferentâ, & thought they might be aromantic (another term I didnât know), & it turned out that weâre both neurodivergentâŠ
In other words, as much of an ally as I am, it is not the central focus of my life, I am not completely up to date with ideas, terminology etc. I support them actively & enthusiastically whenever I can, but I also have issues of my own going on, relating to my neurodivergence and the toll that decades of masking have taken on me, along with the exhaustion that comes with being deeply empathetic in a world gone mad.
And as an AuADHD person, I have a very broad range of interests. I care deeply about lots of things.,
And I most certainly donât appreciate being judged by someone who has no knowledge or understanding of me.
@HighlandLawyer @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
Apologies to everyone else in the thread. I really do react when people make ignorant simplistic judgement calls.
@HighlandLawyer @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
And I have calmed down. The term âbiologically femaleâ Is of course, horribly out-dated, clumsy & clearly, awfully, in accurate. The fact that I used it is a consequence of my age, socialisation and the fact that in the last week Iâve had several health scares & about to go and have a blood test.
Most of us know lovely, sensitive, considerate older people who occasionally say something âinappropriateâ because of ignorance, or because of their own stresses resulting in the use of out-dated phrases. Excuse me while I turn into one of them. And please be kind. Iâve dealt with plenty of shit in my life.
I wonder if itâs a case of a) only being able to use a certain number of characters in a post, and b) the binary & politicised nature of our languages.
Itâs such a bind that, while people must get to express & identify with diverse genders, on the other hand women are still oppressed.
Women, as the term is in common parlance.
We need an accepted-by-all, non-political word to express the group. And we don't have one. It's basic.
@HighlandLawyer @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
Thank you for your gracious & non-reactive response.
@KatS @HighlandLawyer @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
No, I meant it as a cis gender woman, but I am yet to get used to using that term.
@HighlandLawyer @KatS @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
I think there are times when anyone wants to talk about people whose experience of life is similar to their own.
A transgender woman who received the love and support of family early on, transitioned into âgirlhoodâ and accessed puberty blockers, will have had a very different experience of life to a much older person who grew up âmaleâ and was physically mature before transitioning.
A cis-het woman , who was always comfortable with their gender will have had a different experience of life to a butch lesbian woman.
All will also have some things in common. And itâs the things we have in common that should bring women together, rather than the ways in which we differ. But there will also be times when our specific circumstances, past or present, make us seek out those most like ourselves.
@HighlandLawyer @KatS @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
I remember being in high school in the 70s and learning that there were some species in which biological sex was not a clear, binary thing. I donât remember when it was that I learned that some babies were assigned a gender by doctors, based on assumptions about their indistinct genitalia.
The idea that children need to be socialised as either boys or girls always⊠Iâm trying to think of the right word. I was always more than merely âconcernedâ, but not upset. My own children wore what they liked & played what they wanted to play with, which generally fitted with their apparent gender, but not always.
I think it was actually easier to be more gender neutral with kids back then than now. The gender divide in kids clothes & toys now is obscene, driven by capitalist greed.
@HighlandLawyer @KatS @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
Age & generation come into it & Iâm definitely not saying this to justify âboomer bashingâ (I am one) or criticisms of âthe younger generationâ. Intergenerational tiffs rely on tropes about age & are also pointlessly divisive.
We recognise that nationality, religion, class etc matter as factors which affect the socialisation of people, the experiences they are likely to have and the values they are likely to develop. We need to be more cognisant of the differences between age cohorts, not just in a knee jerk way based on superficial stereotypes, but in a way that properly recognises how different groups were influenced by what was going on when they were going through key developmental stages in life.
My own children, older Millenials, grew up without smart phones & social media. They had limited access to the internet, which was yet to be âenshittifiedâ. They did have video games, but also spent considerable time outside, riding bikes, climbing trees etc.
Already the differences between Millenials & Gen Z are significant.
@HighlandLawyer @KatS @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
âWomenâs Libâ was in full swing when I was a young teen, too young to be fully aware, but old enough to assume that it would all be sorted by the time I finished high school. (I a rude shock when I entered the work forceâŠ)
But homophobia was also rife, with the jocks dominating the high school corridors. Girls were allowed to wear grey cords or grey âcanvasâ jeans as part of their winter uniform, but not shorts in summer. When I look back I realise that attempts to give girls more freedom & ârightsâ were tempered by anxiety about gender. Not just about the role gender played in determining peopleâs rights & choices, but the definition of gender itself.
@HighlandLawyer @KatS @KatyElphinstone @3TomatoesShort
The society I grew up in, its values & expectations, was quite different to the one experienced by my oldest. While they didnât totally reject gender norms, they were able to resist some aspects in ways that wouldâve been difficult 30 years earlier.
They didnât embrace a non-binary identity until they were into their 30s, by which time it wasnât particularly controversial within their family & social circles, or even at work.
K.J. Elphinstone
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