Steve Troughton-SmithMar 17

If the original Mac had used icons in menus from the start, nobody in their right mind would be calling for their removal today.

That's how you know that argument doesn't reflect reality. All major platforms now have icons in menus; you can't wind back the clock on that one, you're just obstinately refusing to follow the system standards and user expectation.

So much ink and many podcast hours have been wasted discussing the wrong parts of the issues with Liquid Glass on the Mac

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 17
@stroughtonsmith I would. It’s not a question of “are we used to it or not”. It’s about principles: do icons help you find stuff faster? Do they help understand the meaning of the action? For most of the menu items, no. The original Mac didn’t have icons not because they couldn’t do it, but because it was impossible to do in a good and meaningful way. Still is. It’s not about computers capabilities, it’s about how human perception works. Humans are still the same
Show threadJohn GruberMar 17
@nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Bingo.
Show threadMindaugas Rudokas
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Let’s not forget that *also* humans are *different*! Some are very happy about macOS menu icons *exactly* because of how their perception works. And they will say YES to those questions even in current state of implementation. Maybe that goes under the accessibility umbrella because of the small percentage of population, but this alone warrants the development.
Mar 18 at 10:14amWeb
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith On the other hand, people who feel that icons “are noise” can be considered being on the other end of the spectrum for this accessibility aspect. I’m sure the shitty quality of implementation exaggerates this cohort by a lot, but even after fixing inconsistencies, toning down the amount by reevaluating each case, improving the quality of the symbols — there will be people who do not find them useful and would prefer just clean classic text-only look.
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Also there are menu items where icons are arguably universally helpful. Like ones related to spacial modifications (text justification, window positioning) or color (file tag color). I would guess that even people from the “classic” camp would still prefer to have those.
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Seems like menu iconification system should have been designed to be able to adjust to the needs of the user. But Apple “had no time” for this, therefore we are wasting our time now trying to help.
Show threadSteve Troughton-SmithMar 18
@mrudokas @gruber @nikitonsky I'm in that camp; I much prefer menus with icons, they're easier to scan, and I feel legacy wall-of-text menus look dated and awful now. I would be furious if they took the menu icons away again just because of the podcast discourse. Is it really a case where they need to add a setting, though, or is it just a cheap outlet for other frustrations with the OS design?
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@stroughtonsmith @gruber @nikitonsky I prefer having some icons, so I could not tell.

You need to clean the mess first and then do some UX research. We have no idea how many complain about “noise” purely because of shitty quality of implementation vs who really function better with text-only.

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @gruber @stroughtonsmith No. I don’t buy that. There’s no human on Earth who looks at these and is like “I have no problem telling these apart”. Relativism is a bad criteria: if you say “anyone just might like anything” it’s impossible to make any decision at all
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith Ok, you showing the worst icon design example. Yes there are plenty of crap currently. But this is a separate issue from having or not icons in menus.
Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @gruber @stroughtonsmith I am glad you have moved from “Some [people] are very happy about macOS menu icons *exactly* because of how their perception works. And they will say YES to those questions even in current state of implementation.” to those people not being happy about implementation
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith I see no movement, Niki, sorry. Let me rephrase maybe: I’m sure for some people it is a big net positive despite significant amount of places where execution is lacking.

Why conflate UX principles that can be helpful (even if only for the part of user base) with execution problems?

Show threaddmitriidMar 18

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

It's impossible come up with a visual metaphor for every action of every app and fit it into a tiny icon.

What does "open link to profile" icon even mean?

Why is "shared album" a wall poster (or a bookmarked landscape?) and "pictures from me" is an icon used for profile/account settings?

Yes, f is "take portrait" and "take selfie portrait".

And so on and so forth.

Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@dmitriid @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Yes, not everything is representable. If there is no good visual metaphor, then don’t do it, otherwise you are just hurting usability, instead of helping. Seems simple. And yet here we are.

That is real noise indeed worth complaining about. But it also makes impossible to judge how much of the negative feedback comes from these nonsense cases and how much people would still perceive properly designed version with icons as “noisy”.

Show threaddmitriidMar 18

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Even in a "properly designed version" icons just become visual noise. You remove a powerful way to group and distinguish items, especially in longer menus.

When every icon is a strained visual metaphor of monochrome gray lines, they disappear in the noise

Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@dmitriid @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

When you place icons on most important actions and don’t litter them on everything, it is very helpful for grouping in long menus.

Yes size and monochromatic constraints have their challenges. But that’s what design is.

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith you are assuming “properly designed version” is possible. Which I am not sure. What’s a good icon for “Portrait Selfie”? Or “Edit Home Screen”? There is none. It’s not a question of “just spend more time thinking and refining”. It’s a problem with no solution. Even with all the money in the world
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@nikitonsky @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith

By “properly designed” I mean menus can include items with omitted icons, if they have no sensible visual representation. While what happened with 26 looks like just littering by junior designers without any oversight to achieve some KPI of how many icon slots did I fill.

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith Okay, I agree, there is a world where some very few icons could be strategically added to some menu items to make the whole thing easier to access. But this is different _in every aspect_ from what Apple did on iOS/macOS. Nothing of what Apple did is right. No aspect of it can be saved
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@nikitonsky @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Well, they better try.

Show threaddmitriidMar 18

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Great characterization :)