Steve Troughton-SmithMar 17

If the original Mac had used icons in menus from the start, nobody in their right mind would be calling for their removal today.

That's how you know that argument doesn't reflect reality. All major platforms now have icons in menus; you can't wind back the clock on that one, you're just obstinately refusing to follow the system standards and user expectation.

So much ink and many podcast hours have been wasted discussing the wrong parts of the issues with Liquid Glass on the Mac

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 17
@stroughtonsmith I would. It’s not a question of “are we used to it or not”. It’s about principles: do icons help you find stuff faster? Do they help understand the meaning of the action? For most of the menu items, no. The original Mac didn’t have icons not because they couldn’t do it, but because it was impossible to do in a good and meaningful way. Still is. It’s not about computers capabilities, it’s about how human perception works. Humans are still the same
Show threadJohn GruberMar 17
@nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Bingo.
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Let’s not forget that *also* humans are *different*! Some are very happy about macOS menu icons *exactly* because of how their perception works. And they will say YES to those questions even in current state of implementation. Maybe that goes under the accessibility umbrella because of the small percentage of population, but this alone warrants the development.
Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @gruber @stroughtonsmith No. I don’t buy that. There’s no human on Earth who looks at these and is like “I have no problem telling these apart”. Relativism is a bad criteria: if you say “anyone just might like anything” it’s impossible to make any decision at all
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith Ok, you showing the worst icon design example. Yes there are plenty of crap currently. But this is a separate issue from having or not icons in menus.
Show threaddmitriidMar 18

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

It's impossible come up with a visual metaphor for every action of every app and fit it into a tiny icon.

What does "open link to profile" icon even mean?

Why is "shared album" a wall poster (or a bookmarked landscape?) and "pictures from me" is an icon used for profile/account settings?

Yes, f is "take portrait" and "take selfie portrait".

And so on and so forth.

Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@dmitriid @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Yes, not everything is representable. If there is no good visual metaphor, then don’t do it, otherwise you are just hurting usability, instead of helping. Seems simple. And yet here we are.

That is real noise indeed worth complaining about. But it also makes impossible to judge how much of the negative feedback comes from these nonsense cases and how much people would still perceive properly designed version with icons as “noisy”.

Show threadNiki TonskyMar 18
@mrudokas @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith you are assuming “properly designed version” is possible. Which I am not sure. What’s a good icon for “Portrait Selfie”? Or “Edit Home Screen”? There is none. It’s not a question of “just spend more time thinking and refining”. It’s a problem with no solution. Even with all the money in the world
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@nikitonsky @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith

By “properly designed” I mean menus can include items with omitted icons, if they have no sensible visual representation. While what happened with 26 looks like just littering by junior designers without any oversight to achieve some KPI of how many icon slots did I fill.

Show threadNiki Tonsky
@mrudokas @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith Okay, I agree, there is a world where some very few icons could be strategically added to some menu items to make the whole thing easier to access. But this is different _in every aspect_ from what Apple did on iOS/macOS. Nothing of what Apple did is right. No aspect of it can be saved
Mar 18 at 3:25pmWeb
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@nikitonsky @dmitriid @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Well, they better try.