Mastodawn

If the original Mac had used icons in menus from the start, nobody in their right mind would be calling for their removal today.

That's how you know that argument doesn't reflect reality. All major platforms now have icons in menus; you can't wind back the clock on that one, you're just obstinately refusing to follow the system standards and user expectation.

So much ink and many podcast hours have been wasted discussing the wrong parts of the issues with Liquid Glass on the Mac

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Niki Tonsky Mar 17

@stroughtonsmith I would. It’s not a question of “are we used to it or not”. It’s about principles: do icons help you find stuff faster? Do they help understand the meaning of the action? For most of the menu items, no. The original Mac didn’t have icons not because they couldn’t do it, but because it was impossible to do in a good and meaningful way. Still is. It’s not about computers capabilities, it’s about how human perception works. Humans are still the same

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John Gruber Mar 17

@nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Bingo.

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Mindaugas Rudokas Mar 18

@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Let’s not forget that *also* humans are *different*! Some are very happy about macOS menu icons *exactly* because of how their perception works. And they will say YES to those questions even in current state of implementation. Maybe that goes under the accessibility umbrella because of the small percentage of population, but this alone warrants the development.

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Mindaugas Rudokas Mar 18

@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith On the other hand, people who feel that icons “are noise” can be considered being on the other end of the spectrum for this accessibility aspect. I’m sure the shitty quality of implementation exaggerates this cohort by a lot, but even after fixing inconsistencies, toning down the amount by reevaluating each case, improving the quality of the symbols — there will be people who do not find them useful and would prefer just clean classic text-only look.

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Mindaugas Rudokas Mar 18

@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Also there are menu items where icons are arguably universally helpful. Like ones related to spacial modifications (text justification, window positioning) or color (file tag color). I would guess that even people from the “classic” camp would still prefer to have those.

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Mindaugas Rudokas

@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Seems like menu iconification system should have been designed to be able to adjust to the needs of the user. But Apple “had no time” for this, therefore we are wasting our time now trying to help.