Steve Troughton-SmithMar 17

If the original Mac had used icons in menus from the start, nobody in their right mind would be calling for their removal today.

That's how you know that argument doesn't reflect reality. All major platforms now have icons in menus; you can't wind back the clock on that one, you're just obstinately refusing to follow the system standards and user expectation.

So much ink and many podcast hours have been wasted discussing the wrong parts of the issues with Liquid Glass on the Mac

Show threadNikiMar 17
@stroughtonsmith I would. It’s not a question of “are we used to it or not”. It’s about principles: do icons help you find stuff faster? Do they help understand the meaning of the action? For most of the menu items, no. The original Mac didn’t have icons not because they couldn’t do it, but because it was impossible to do in a good and meaningful way. Still is. It’s not about computers capabilities, it’s about how human perception works. Humans are still the same
Show threadJohn GruberMar 17
@nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Bingo.
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@gruber @nikitonsky @stroughtonsmith Let’s not forget that *also* humans are *different*! Some are very happy about macOS menu icons *exactly* because of how their perception works. And they will say YES to those questions even in current state of implementation. Maybe that goes under the accessibility umbrella because of the small percentage of population, but this alone warrants the development.
Show threadNikiMar 18
@mrudokas @gruber @stroughtonsmith No. I don’t buy that. There’s no human on Earth who looks at these and is like “I have no problem telling these apart”. Relativism is a bad criteria: if you say “anyone just might like anything” it’s impossible to make any decision at all
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18
@nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith Ok, you showing the worst icon design example. Yes there are plenty of crap currently. But this is a separate issue from having or not icons in menus.
Show threaddmitriidMar 18

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

It's impossible come up with a visual metaphor for every action of every app and fit it into a tiny icon.

What does "open link to profile" icon even mean?

Why is "shared album" a wall poster (or a bookmarked landscape?) and "pictures from me" is an icon used for profile/account settings?

Yes, f is "take portrait" and "take selfie portrait".

And so on and so forth.

Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@dmitriid @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Yes, not everything is representable. If there is no good visual metaphor, then don’t do it, otherwise you are just hurting usability, instead of helping. Seems simple. And yet here we are.

That is real noise indeed worth complaining about. But it also makes impossible to judge how much of the negative feedback comes from these nonsense cases and how much people would still perceive properly designed version with icons as “noisy”.

Show threaddmitriid

@mrudokas @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

Even in a "properly designed version" icons just become visual noise. You remove a powerful way to group and distinguish items, especially in longer menus.

When every icon is a strained visual metaphor of monochrome gray lines, they disappear in the noise

Mar 18 at 2:55pmWeb
Show threadMindaugas RudokasMar 18

@dmitriid @nikitonsky @gruber @stroughtonsmith

When you place icons on most important actions and don’t litter them on everything, it is very helpful for grouping in long menus.

Yes size and monochromatic constraints have their challenges. But that’s what design is.