WeltzeitgeistGreat video. Watch it!
(This is Prof. Ada Palmer @adapalmer)
villon@wackJackle
Ist wohl in der Mitte kaputt.
Ist wohl in der Mitte kaputt.
GinevraCat@wackJackle Who is the scholar?
@GinevraCat This is Prof. Ada Palmer
James BrittWho is the speaker? Is there more of this interview available?
@jamesbritt This is Prof. Ada Palmer. I hope that helps to find the interview
Thanks! I thought that might be her. She wrote Inventing the Renaissance. She's very interesting.
@jamesbritt First time I've heard about her but I will look for more input.
Susan Calvin@jamesbritt @wackJackle that's an awesome book.
Thierry D'Hulster@wackJackle This reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions
bituur esztreym@wackJackle who is she, this scholar?
@bituur_esztreym This is Prof. Ada Palmer
@wackJackle thanks a lot!
ThierryStoehr@bituur_esztreym @wackJackle Thanks! So Prof. Ada Palmer web site: https://www.adapalmer.com/ + the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Palmer
Ezrine@wackJackle except you can't put LLMs on the same line. It's no "tech revolution".
@ezrine She doesn't say it. Listen to what she has to say again.
オチュー (stop colonialism 🇵🇸)@wackJackle Loving the part about Gutenberg going bankrupt and all the following ones.
Less of a fan of the conclusion* (but does she knows how to tell a story ! I was sucked right in, wow)
*Because I don't think its very interesting to argue on the unity of change on some technique branch (computers/the press) while it's always a continuum anyway so like, in the end, I felt "duh all this for that". But it was a nice journey anyway.
@otyugh You don't have to agree with someone has to say about a topic. You can still learn something about it.
@wackJackle Totally, that's why I also said I loved the part I loved ! (and learned !)
Baudouin Feildel@otyugh @wackJackle I kind of agree with you, after watching I'm left with two feelings: that's a really interesting thesis, I like it; and: what now?
It seems there would be something to learn in this parallel she is making between those two information revolutions. But it is not obvious to me. The only thing that I can guess is that the current revolution we live in has probably not settled down and it will take another few decades at least.
1/2
@otyugh @wackJackle but this only conclusion seems kind of obvious when you look at the state of social media, the tech oligarchy and how they affect the world.
If you would know about any other resources from Palmer or other on the topic I would definitely be interested to know more!
2/2
@otyugh @wackJackle I found something to dig more into the topic: https://reactionwheel.net/2024/10/the-illusion-of-acceleration.html
After reading the article, it seems to be that this parallel between the printing press and the IT revolution is another example that could be use to support the thesis of the article.
Matthieu Urvoy@wackJackle Thanks for sharing this! Her take on the successive tech revolutions about information is quite interesting.
<my 2cts>
But I find it difficult to consider the output of LLMs/Gen AI as "information". I'd rather word it as "data".
For it to be considered as "information", I would expect these technologies to provide "new facts", which they can't (or hallucinate, in which case they are false information).
Therefore I don't see how this serves the information history.
</my 2cts>
SamuelJohnson@birozularutti @wackJackle If you read up on distinctions between data, information, knowledge and wisdom you'll find no requirement for information to be true, accurate or novel.
Its character is informing, that is communicating something meaningful. Misinformation and disinformation are forms of information often even more amenable to communication ("a lie gets halfway round the world before the truth gets its boots on").
@samueljohnson @wackJackle I need to read a bit more about that. The definitions for data and information I had in mind were close to these: https://bloomfire.com/blog/data-vs-information/
According to these definitions, I still think that GenAI/LLM output does not qualify as information. At best, it mimics information provided by others.
But I agree on disinformation being a form of information.
Just Tom... 🐁@wackJackle
Delightfully accessible and enthusiastically imparted. Well worth watching...!
Delightfully accessible and enthusiastically imparted. Well worth watching...!
@wackJackle If anyone can find the rest of this interview, please post a link below. Thanks!
BobDevneyAda Palmer is a national treasure! A terrific Renaissance historian at UChicago. But also an exciting, erudite (and fun!) guest at science fiction/fantasy/horror conventions for years. (She wrote the mind-bending Terra Ignota series.)
At one con she handed a small incunabulum around the room for everyone to (carefully) hold in our hands, while she spoke brilliantly about the early history of printing, as in this video.
mx@wackJackle This is fascinating @adapalmer and she deserves to be tagged directly
@mx I@[email protected] I agree and I forgot that I'm already following her. I'm sorry. She's fantastic.
GeePawHill@adapalmer My new crush. Watching the whole podcast now, sipping rye and drinking beer.
Eat This Podcast@GeePawHill @adapalmer Where IS the whole episode? I don't need to watch, just listen.
Why Leonardo was a saboteur, Gutenberg went broke, and Florence was weird – Ada Palmer
Thanks. I found the original at https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/ada-palmer and will now attempt to huffduff it.
How cosplaying Ancient Rome led to the scientific revolution
Ambassador visiting Renaissance Florence: “Where am I? None of this has existed for a thousand years."
Which I managed to do, so you can listen at this link https://huffduffer.com/JeremyCherfas/713963 and, you know, take your elbows off the Nazi bar.
Amandine@wackJackle this is fantastic. Thanks for the clear explanation @adapalmer
ᴺⁱˡᶻ 🍸We must be thankful for religion + capitalism...
Juho MäntysaloWhat a passionate speaker they are!
On a related note, saw an exhibition of those first Venice-printed books back in the day. What pieces of art, and status symbols, too. The exhibition made a big point how the youth wanted to be painted with their bleeding-edge pocket books. No dusty coffee table books for the young generation, no sir!
Michael ᚋᚔᚉᚆᚓᚐᚂ@wackJackle @adapalmer Beautifully articulated. I had considered that parallel before.
What I want to know is where the parallel goes in terms of monopolies, censorship, age-verification, etc.
Thomas Fricke (he/his)You need historians to understand social media revolutions!
Told you so!
Noel Kelly1490s, boom...
gun power/cannon arrives from China (vector destroying old power equilibrium)...
as printing becomes sustainable (vector for spreading new ideas)
What a time to have been alive.
AlexanderVI@gnoll110 @wackJackle @adapalmer
Europeans had had gunpowder since the 13th century. By 1453 cannonmaking was advanced enough for a Hungarian named Orbán to cast a 27' long bombard with range of over a mile to help the Turks take Constantinople, while in France an army equipped with 300 artillery pieces fought at the battle of Castillion that same year.
EdSReally I ought to wait 17 days to post this...
The full Dwarkesh Patel podcast interview with Ada Palmer is here:
Why Leonardo was a saboteur, Gutenberg went broke, and Florence was weird – Ada Palmer
Why Leonardo was a saboteur, Gutenberg went broke, and Florence was weird – Ada Palmer
Mikalai@EdS @wackJackle @adapalmer
Around 44:31 -- the only time resistance fails, is when people feel that partial victory is failure.
Wow.
This is an explanation of why, for example putin's, propaganda is the way it is.
This is an articulation of why purist's argument feel ... counterproductive, ... to put it mildly. Hell, millions in 20th century were killed with pikes of purist arguments physicalization.
Around 44:31 -- the only time resistance fails, is when people feel that partial victory is failure.
Wow.
This is an explanation of why, for example putin's, propaganda is the way it is.
This is an articulation of why purist's argument feel ... counterproductive, ... to put it mildly. Hell, millions in 20th century were killed with pikes of purist arguments physicalization.
Utarg of Utarg 🔬🇪🇺🇸🇪🇬🇧🇺🇦@wackJackle That’s excellent.
@wackJackle @adapalmer
Since it is about info distribution logistics, about logistic bridges, we should see trolls under them. Look, Big Tech.
Since it is about info distribution logistics, about logistic bridges, we should see trolls under them. Look, Big Tech.
@wackJackle @adapalmer
Little nugget: mass produced commodity needs distribution.
Interesting modern direction: mass produced 3D printers to let people produce artisanal-scale whatever/artifacts.
@wackJackle @adapalmer I don't understand the economics. If I print 300 books for the cost of one copy of the book, and I sell seven copies, doesn't that mean I've made a big profit? Even if the 293 remaining copies just sit there? Or were manuscript copies by scribes sold at a big loss?
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible says the full print run of 158 or 180 copies seems to have sold out immediately, including sales outside modern Germany, so how did poor distribution result in bankruptcy?
My camera shoots fascistsHuh, kinda wish someone would answer this...