Kitty Jynx
Lucie / minutethe argument "but you're also no longer using a fountain pen to write" against hand-written code is silly to me. i think close to 100% of people would rather read a short story written in fountain pen by octavia e. butler or william gibson than something that a rando ai-prompted? they could even take their time, why would it need to be rushed?
Nigel
Seiðr
Owlor 
@Illuminatus @mntmn Same. Heck, I use quill pens sometimes for my calligraphy.
Jonathan Frederickson@Illuminatus @mntmn Same - and it's so satisfying to be able to write in all sorts of fun inks!
Sure can be an expensive hobby though 😆️
lynn@mntmn these arguments are forever tainted because they come from the direction of optimization of 'work', classifies art as 'work', and establishes a worth-ness to it in monetary value rather than value to humanity. it is terrifying because it lays bare how our system of governance and economies goes against the very concept of being a human
Christian Schneider@lynn @mntmn So much THIS.
"But you can create so much more STUFF in a much shorter time with AI!!!11!"
... Right, but what kind of "stuff" are we talking about? The next shitty social network? Some kind of "helper" that makes a stupid process easier to deal with, instead of fixing the stupid process? The millionth crappy rip-off of some game? Anything else that nobody needs, except for the person trying to make a quick buck with it?
Even if their brains are only capable of thinking in capitalist mantra the AI dudes could at least stop telling others that their (shitty) version of the future is inevitable and the one and only thing that will exist in "a few years". Even if the bubble doesn't burst spectacularly, there will always be a market for human made stuff, because some of us don't just want more shit, but to cherish the thought and effort someone has put into something.
"But you can create so much more STUFF in a much shorter time with AI!!!11!"
... Right, but what kind of "stuff" are we talking about? The next shitty social network? Some kind of "helper" that makes a stupid process easier to deal with, instead of fixing the stupid process? The millionth crappy rip-off of some game? Anything else that nobody needs, except for the person trying to make a quick buck with it?
Even if their brains are only capable of thinking in capitalist mantra the AI dudes could at least stop telling others that their (shitty) version of the future is inevitable and the one and only thing that will exist in "a few years". Even if the bubble doesn't burst spectacularly, there will always be a market for human made stuff, because some of us don't just want more shit, but to cherish the thought and effort someone has put into something.
Dźwiedziu
Steinar BangWhen I started reading Marko Kloos I remember that he wrote his books in longhand with a good pen.
He has switched to text processing now but he still keeps a warm relationship with good pens https://www.markokloos.com/?cat=13
d.rift
Johannes@JmbFountain no, that is a category error
Ivan G.@mntmn funnily enough I would reply to that statement: well yeah started to used them recently! (and being left-handed is trickier too :D )
Yeah this is the usual argument they say. But the problem is that if something is an innovation doesn't mean that it has to be good. And these "stochastic parrots" will do more harm than good. Making people lose basic skills, killing creativity, and vomiting a huge amount of mediocre quality products (polluted with wrong content/information)....
Yeah this is the usual argument they say. But the problem is that if something is an innovation doesn't mean that it has to be good. And these "stochastic parrots" will do more harm than good. Making people lose basic skills, killing creativity, and vomiting a huge amount of mediocre quality products (polluted with wrong content/information)....
kianryan ☑️🐙🏳️🌈@mntmn It's the invasion in to my own space. I've played, and honestly, I'm in a similar space to yourself. I mostly code in C#, and have a NeoVim based workflow. I'll dip in to Visual Studio for legacy Framework projects. My workflow is /efficient/, and allows me to review my own work, and that of my co-workers. It lets me breathe and think. It uses LSP (primarily Roslyn) and a bunch of plugins to flow nicely.
Occassionaly I'm asked how my setup works, and I'll happily talk it through. It's not that complicated, and someone will play with it for a bit, and may find things they like, or not. Again, their choice. On a one on one basis, we can have reasonable discussions, usually with a coffee. There's been learnings on both sides.
For work, we run rules that you're responsible for your own commits, wherever that code comes from. That was true before, and it's true now. So far, it's held up. We had a couple of small incidents, and some re-education was applied.
But by Gods, the minute that I pop my head above the general internet parapet and say I'm /not/ using an AI driven workflow, as a personal preference, you realise how much you're against the grain.
Andrea (Drea) Tamar Pinski@mntmn the thing is a pen is still a pen.
Yes a ball point pen is easier than a fountain pen (well unless the fountain pen has its own reservoir which some do).
But a pen is still the same kind of tool.
It is like gcc vs tcc vs llvm/clang vs icc vs suncc. They are all compilers but some easier to use and some are stuck in without a reservoir.
Also a writing utensils is similar but in a different language like clang vs flang or c vs Ada.
But llms are not the same as a compiler. Ao it is not even comparable.
Su-Shee@mntmn if I remember correctly, neal stephenson is hand-writing his 800 pages tomes.
max@mntmn I take all my technical notes, to-do lists, etc. in fountain pen while I write code, it's a surprisingly good pairing. Writing by hand makes me think differently than writing on a computer. Just because a newer tool exists, doesn't mean the old one is automatically obsolete! That's just bizarre tech-bro brain.
Lynx
ailurux@mntmn i don't use a fountain pen, but i do often use a pen. often when i want to make sense of something or learn something new, as i find writing helps me to connect thoughts, and the extra time taken to physically note something down often helps me remember it. i may be able to type faster with a keyboard, but that presumes that the goal of writing is to output as many words as possible and not an intrinsic human behaviour
holo//memory
phryk 🏴
Oliver
Cenbe
Rodolfo Canet@mntmn My about 15 fountain pens also disagree with that argument. And, as an active researcher, I don't use AI for anything.
Yann Sionneau@mntmn I've just discovered the word "fountain pen". So funny!
In french we name this " feather pen " :)
In french we name this " feather pen " :)
Ypsilenna Gloomvale
brib [has moved again]but you're also no longer using a fountain pen to write
looks at stack of fountain-pen-written notes
Count Holdem@mntmn One of the more obvious reasons to accelerate the AI data center build-out timeline, is to counter the increasingly destabilizing economies around the world, due to fossil fuels effects - of which, fossil fuels is the main driver of said data centers.
And since US politicians write policy for these industries that supply this current abuse, the coalition of #TechBros with a complicit grifter President, is timely in its execution of said abuse-of-power.
Coalesce people to #BoycottAI
Liminal witch 🧙♀️ Sarah@mntmn no one should ever say that about fountain pens, or they risk being correct
@mntmn You're no longer ploughing the ground by hand. This is true, but does it relate with anything else than a farmer's work?
False analogies help to construct falsely rational ideas all the time. An advance in technology doesn't mean a forced change is needed.
By the way, LLM tools aren't an advance in technology either, but just an advance in marketing.
False analogies help to construct falsely rational ideas all the time. An advance in technology doesn't mean a forced change is needed.
By the way, LLM tools aren't an advance in technology either, but just an advance in marketing.
Violet Madder@violetmadder @mntmn That's the point, writing something that sounds obvious.
clewno till and broadfork disquisitions available on demand, yeah! probably a great analogy but requires a lot of background
Fokeu🌸
AT
Philippa Cowderoy@mntmn i mean, i'm dyspraxic enough to stick to reasonably nice rollerballs, but when i need to draw someone a quick diagram and they don't have to read too much of my fuckawful handwriting? fuck the computer.
(it helps that often seeing the diagram drawn is worth far more than seeing the end product when you're chatting maths or thinly disguised maths)
"the text matters, not the ink" is a legit decision about medium, not just tools. "let a stochastic parrot shit it out" isn't the same thing at all.
sidereal@mntmn this argument fucking falls apart against those of us who actually do still use a fountain pen to write.
Text editors are for editing text. Word processors are for processing words. Ballpoint pens and pencils are for filling out forms. Only fountain pens are for actually writing.
Would your crush rather get a letter written in fountain pen, or by AI?
Eric LawtonI've moved on from writing code on punched cards to a syntax-sensitive editor but some things I still write with a fountain pen.
I haven't yet found a use case for AI™ in my life.
Dianora (Diane Bruce)@EricLawton @mntmn I have a tiny collection in comparison but I always use a FP to write notes. ;)
C.S.StrowbridgeIf you use a typewriter to write, you are still responsible for 100% of what is written.
These pro-AI zealots can't come up with a single logical argument.
@mntmn It is a nonsense phrase, empty of thought and meaning. Literacy is a technology that is unlike tools. It is an augmentation of the human mind, and there are no other technologies like it.
Arnel Šarić Sharan 
@mntmn I am actually using two fountain pens.
MintyFries@mntmn The medium of information entry doesn't change the content of the information. You can type the same text more quickly than writing with a fountain pen, but you're still writing it. The "but you're no longer using a fountain pen to write" comparison is apples to oranges, since with an LLM, sure it comes up with information faster than typing it, but you are not creating the information.
Ruchira S. Datta@mntmn I am still using a fountain pen to write, btw.
Anke