Jeri A. Simpson
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Will@MostlyHarmless
🎯!
Martin Bodlák 💙💛@MostlyHarmless at some moment, there was a (rather theoretical) discussion about completely replacing income tax with only VAT… I wonder if it would work IRL
Display Name@babaq @MostlyHarmless
That's taxing expenditure instead of income. Rich people don't even spend money. They borrow. So they keep accumulating stock. They spend so little of their income compared to low income people spending almost all. That's every rich asshole's dream.
That's taxing expenditure instead of income. Rich people don't even spend money. They borrow. So they keep accumulating stock. They spend so little of their income compared to low income people spending almost all. That's every rich asshole's dream.
Birk@alper @babaq @MostlyHarmless you still pay VAT on what you pay with loaned money righr? I believe using loans is mostly to get around income tax.
catch@birkenator @alper @babaq @MostlyHarmless you also pay VAT even when you have zero income at all. Whereas income tax you usually have a personal allowance where you only start paying tax once you go above it.
@catch56 @alper @babaq @MostlyHarmless so in essence it’s easy to get around income tax and harder to get around VAT.
@birkenator @alper @babaq @MostlyHarmless no that's not the point.
If you earn $20k per year you might pay very little income tax right now. But you have to spend everything you earn on housingl/food/bills etc. if there is VAT on all of that then you pay VAT on everything.
If you earn $500k/year you don't need to spend all of that on housing/food/bills and can save it instead. You would pay zero VAT on the saved money.
@birkenator @babaq @MostlyHarmless
That's not the part that matters most. (They borrow to avoid income). That lower income people spend all their income to make it through the month. Rich people spend a fraction of their income. If you can't tax them for the money they make they'll sit on more and more money.
That's not the part that matters most. (They borrow to avoid income). That lower income people spend all their income to make it through the month. Rich people spend a fraction of their income. If you can't tax them for the money they make they'll sit on more and more money.
@alper I am not proposing to have *only* VAT – I suppose that some kind of revamped wealth tax is also necessary
@birkenator @MostlyHarmless
@birkenator @MostlyHarmless
@babaq @alper @MostlyHarmless it’s a pipe dream though.
Most western systems are all about keeping the lower classes occupied and uninformed while the higher classes make the real policy.
The key word is occupied - enough income for food and the occasional new car, but not enough to do damage.
That system is hard to change. In some places politics are almost Chinese, but rich people are hand picking politicians instead of an aligned committee.
@babaq @birkenator @MostlyHarmless
We don't even need that. Just proper income tax and closing the loopholes created over decades over assets will be enough, mostly. But the problem snowballed into them beginning to want everything, including their own fiefdom. So they became rich enough to think they can act like little feudal lords that deserve their sovereign lands to rule. Historically the only cure seems to be guillotine.
We don't even need that. Just proper income tax and closing the loopholes created over decades over assets will be enough, mostly. But the problem snowballed into them beginning to want everything, including their own fiefdom. So they became rich enough to think they can act like little feudal lords that deserve their sovereign lands to rule. Historically the only cure seems to be guillotine.
Baron Vonskinnback@alper @birkenator @babaq @MostlyHarmless what about paying VAT on investments savings and pensions when the money goes in & out?
@Vonskinnback @birkenator @babaq @MostlyHarmless
VAT is a method of collecting sales tax. It's indirect. So no sales made or value added/created then you don't pay the money you didn't make.
Simple: If money is made you tax it. If not you don't.
VAT inflates the price of something to create an extra margin for the government. It says "you made a transaction, bought a good/service and sold it for a bit more. Apart from the tax you'll pay for your income I want 10% (or whatever) paid by the last person. The only difference from sales tax is everyone including the last person adds the VAT to their price. Only the final buyer cannot deduct the VAT they paid from the vat they got from the next sale since there isn't one. This is what VAT is. But if you understand or mean something different let me know.
VAT is a method of collecting sales tax. It's indirect. So no sales made or value added/created then you don't pay the money you didn't make.
Simple: If money is made you tax it. If not you don't.
VAT inflates the price of something to create an extra margin for the government. It says "you made a transaction, bought a good/service and sold it for a bit more. Apart from the tax you'll pay for your income I want 10% (or whatever) paid by the last person. The only difference from sales tax is everyone including the last person adds the VAT to their price. Only the final buyer cannot deduct the VAT they paid from the vat they got from the next sale since there isn't one. This is what VAT is. But if you understand or mean something different let me know.
Unus NemoIn America we are taxed when we get our money, when we spend our money, when we save our money (the interest is not tax free), taxed on our land, registration of our vehicles ... The only way to avoid taxes is to become rich, then you become tax exempt.
el Celio 🇪🇺 🇺🇦@elCelio I think it is the most just tax: you pay for what you consume, when you consume
@MostlyHarmless
@MostlyHarmless
Landa 
Would you care to explain why you think this is the most just?
Why do you think it is better than "I think it is the most just tax: you pay for what you earn, when you earn"?
Both sentences use exactly the same argument.
(For the record, I think that neither is the ideal solution, not least because neither takes into account that the value of an additional Euro is very different depending on your current wealth).
This discussion seems to me to be stalled because everyone uses the words "just" and "fair" while having very different definitions for them.
@Landa it is too easy to evade income tax here in Czechia and I mainly reflect my experience
@elCelio @MostlyHarmless
@elCelio @MostlyHarmless
Do you mean Unreported employment or tax evasion by rich people?
Because both have different causes and would require different solutions.
Evading sales taxes is also much easier when you're rich, so I don't think that would help making the system more just.
@babaq @Landa @elCelio @MostlyHarmless they won’t pay any tax. If you tax purchases they just won’t buy anything. For real, they’ll just lease everything through an LLC that loses money each year and gets folded and replaced with another so it never has an operating profit.
@passwordsarehard4 @babaq @Landa @MostlyHarmless
the owners of LLC already do that.
in a limited manner, but it is common to use company's property for personal use.
@elCelio
Yes, they do.
So the proper aim for tax reform would be to reduce the tax burden of poor people and stop the rich from shirking their responsibility.
guteIT
MattChippytea@guteIT @babaq @MostlyHarmless for people earning below the income tax bracket this would undoubtedly lead to increased rates of vat which means they’d be hit very very hard.
Janneke@janneke @babaq @MostlyHarmless if you became disabled youd lose your house in a matter of years. It’s where most people’s wealth is stored, it’s your most valuable asset. Retires would be hit hard as well. If you carve an exemption for homes youd get mega mansions by the rich to avoid taxes again. They’d buy up entire counties with sprawling complex’s. It’s going to take effort.
@passwordsarehard4 @babaq @MostlyHarmless
For most people, their debt is at least as big as their house is worth and there would be hardly anything to tax?
Any civilized country takes care of their disabled. Just don't get disabled in a fascist country, would be my advice.
@janneke @babaq @MostlyHarmless the problem would be that the people with the most equity in thier homes are also the ones with the lowest monthly income, old people. The house would be wealth but they wouldn’t be able to keep paying the tax burden without keeping working.
Polly Kraisus@MostlyHarmless and food. And healthcare. And...
@MostlyHarmless couldn't agree more.
Mason Loring Bliss@MostlyHarmless #alttext4you since this is too good to not boost.
Lisa Simpson presenting a lecture, standing on stage and speaking to her audience. Her slide says, "If businesses only have to pay taxes on profit, not revenue, then I should only have to pay taxes after I've paid all my bills and rent."
Realitätsabstandsoptimierer:in@mason @MostlyHarmless That's Lisa.
@bugbuster42 @MostlyHarmless Thanks! Fixed.
Kirsty Darbyshire@MostlyHarmless isn’t this basically what a tax free personal allowance is for? Though I’m not at all sure that the UK’s £12.5k, which feels like it’s been frozen forever, is enough for each person to pay for housing & utilities, but I feel like that’s the concept behind it.
@nocto @MostlyHarmless US federal taxes have a standardized deduction which I think works similar. They’d assume you would spend at least $X to stay alive so you can take that without any proof, no receipts or records needed. It brings down your taxable income by whatever amount and you pay tax on what’s left above that amount. It’s a scaling system it’s just a broken one.
Adrian Morales@MostlyHarmless Big Corpo doesn't pay taxes at all, and neither should we. 👍
Chao-c'@MostlyHarmless yes, this idea is called "small business". Some people actually (but then, at least in EU, you soon qualify for VAT, which makes your products and services more expensive to everyone not paying VAT)
Joachim 🇪🇺@MostlyHarmless that's mostly BS. A rich person could run up fabulous bills for private airplanes, yachts, personal whatevers, his business, and never pay taxes at all. That's pretty much what already happens
@MostlyHarmless This is why we have tax breaks and brackets
Moisés Pinto MuyalThat sounds logic!
TriLLiCiT
João Santos@MostlyHarmless sales taxes and VAT are tied to revenue (even though in the case of VAT it's paid by the customer on paper the end effect is the same)
Magnus Ahltorp@jmcs @MostlyHarmless VAT is, as can be inferred from its name, based on value add, not revenue. Incoming minus outgoing.
@ahltorp @MostlyHarmless in most countries you can also deduct expenses you have with your work from the income tax.
Thierry Van Kerm@MostlyHarmless It makes sense. To me, corporate taxes should be considered as the contribution of the services businesses take advantage of, just as any other services they pay for.
@MostlyHarmless based af. Almost perfect as rent simply should not exist.
Herman 🇪🇺🇺🇦🇾🇪🍋
BaseFortify@MostlyHarmless You are not a business
Mother Anarchy@MostlyHarmless seriously