Mastodawn

Simon Waldman

@alice ....and yet European countries still (so far as I understand it) refuse asylum claims on the basis that "The USA is a Safe Country".

@swaldman @alice I honestly don't get why we still list the US as "safe to travel" in the travel advisories either.

Simon Waldman Feb 26

@phl @alice I've always assumed it's because it would be diplomatically awkward to do otherwise.

@swaldman @alice Last time I said this in a chat I got a similar answer — it makes sense, and yet it doesn't. Especially in the shadow of all the anti-EU/Europe rants we've heard and the active threat against Greenland.

Cullen Thomas Feb 26

Most countries do not accept refugees from their political allies, it's true. However, there is a kind of work-around in place in many places—please excuse my brain dump but this is something that more people need to know about. To have refugee status approved, you usually need to have your claim addressed in a court of some sort, depending on where you're claiming asylum. When a refugee resettlement agency knows that a claimant didn't come from one of their jurisdiction's designated "refugee generating" countries, but that situation is likely to change, they may schedule the court date for several 🎉years🎉 in the future. Of course, this can also happen because the system is overwhelmed and there's a backlog. Either way, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a very distant court date.

In many of the more civilized nations, once you've got an asylum claim court date scheduled, you enter a special protected class where you get access to state programs such as public schools and healthcare and are allowed to work legally, find housing etc, at least up to that court date.

This can create bureaucratic headaches. But it can also supply a few years of necessary safety during periods when the originating country's political situation is most... dynamic. By the time the court date actually rolls around, the politics may have clarified themselves.

@phl @swaldman @alice

@swaldman @phl @alice

Yeah, pretty much. German political leaders always stressed the "Transatlantic Friendship/Alliance", and it would be awkward to admit that this now belongs on the dung heap of history.

And this doesn't even count the European political leaders who were extruded from the American business machine, such as our own Friedrich #Merz (a #Blackrock veteran).

@phl Outdated info, maybe. Most public guides are based on info from no less than 1-2 years old. 2 years ago, I would have agreed. Today, I'm repeatedly telling people to stay away from here, and if they're here to get out if they can.

@wesdym Most people in my friend bubble, inside or outside the US, are doing the same. That's not the issue really. Neither are the travel guides written by someone or some company a few years ago.

But governments have official travel advisories they regularly update — supposedly to protect their citizens — if there's something going on in a particular destination that is worthy to mention. Health & safety issues of all kinds.

I'm having a hard time believing EU countries forgot to in a year.

@phl If I update something right now, today, I have to do that from other sources, who by logical necessity did the same earlier. And the same is true for most of them, down who knows how many steps, each of which adds more time. Most of those are doing so based on a schedule of weeks or months, and that can easily add up to years.

Any information you have from such guides has come through a long train of sources, and is not only not current, but CAN'T be.

@phl They didn't forget. It just takes longer than most people realize.

There's also the issue of polity. Calling another country dangerous is a move you can't take back, and which will have real economic and political effects. You have to think very seriously about doing it. Official guides are inherently conservative about such things for that reason.

That's why we have to make ample use of spaces like this one, to get across urgent messages in a shorter time.

@wesdym All of the countries (be, de, nl, hu, ee) I looked at so far have had recent updates to the advisories.

Germany has exactly 0 comments for the US while it has a long "Teilreisewarnung" for Japan (partly because of the Fukushima exclusion zone). Hungary lists the US as "fully safe", Japan is "visit with caution; with a region not recommended for visit" (the second part just as with Germany, Fukushima). Belgium had some comments about the US, but it was completely OK for the Dutch too.

@wesdym So yeah it's probably all just policy and politics. Again, I understand that part less and less with how much bile we're receiving from Trump. It's not like actually protecting our citizens with official information would make that much worse than it already is. He'll think up some garbage tomorrow for another reason anyway.

@swaldman @alice

Personally, I would recommend Americans who need to escape to Europe to move there via a student visa. Those are much easier to get, and you will have a much better status - you can get part-time jobs with them.

@juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice USAmericans need to stay and clean up the mess they created for themselves. There isn't enough room in Europe to host half their population. USAmericans have not done enough to prevent this, now they need to get up their lazy asses & stop this desaster. You don't want to hear this I am sure, yet this is the reality.

Look, while I can understand this sentiment, there are plenty of Americans who _aren't_ complete assholes and who are not in any way responsible for this mess.

@juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice I do know. I have lived in USA, have family & friends in USA I very much love. Yet, everyone who let this happen either by voting, or especially by NOT voting, or by ignoring, or by avoiding political talks with MAGA supporters is guilty. That would be everyone. Nothing will change if the "good ones" flee. It needs the good ones to stay and fight. Fact: we have no room in Europe to take them all in. Housingcrisis. Fleeing JUST relocates the problem to Europe.

I hate this line of reasoning because this is the _exact_ same argument made by German right-wing politicians for why Syrian refugees should return to Syria.

It's easy to say that others should fight for their rights if you are not part of the marginalized group that is being oppressed.

@juergen_hubert IMO it is very much different. SYR's couldn't have prevented what came upon them. They couldn't have changed anything except for dying vs being alife. USAmericans are the only ones who can end the regime they brought upon themselves. If half of them flee now it is out of convenience, not need. No one ould be left to stand up & you will have an even more devastating situation for them & the world. Research the market sit. in Europe before suggesting to move here. @swaldman @alice

Please tell me exactly how, for example Black people "could have prevented what came upon them" with the Trump Administration. Or trans people.

Risking death while fighting an evil regime is honorable. Telling _other_ people to risk death while fighting an evil regime... is less so. I will judge Trump supporters, but I will _not_ judge others who have to make that kind of decision.

@juergen_hubert they could have done so much. 1 very effective example: they could have voted, instead of not voting, they didn't because many said "dems or reps are all the same" and added to the problem. @swaldman @alice

Most of them probably did all that, but they got outvoted by white cishet people.

Or their votes were suppressed. The American election system has ways of vote manipulation that are barely conceivable to most Europeans. We should not assume that the USA is in any way a functional democracy by European standards.

Joe Vinegar Feb 26

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice you are implying a level playing field, which is non-existent, and blaming the historically preferred internal victims of the USA. With the level of education, the quality of information, and the free time that they are given, I would be surprised of a different electoral behavior for most of the USA electorate.

Raccoon🇺🇸🏳️‍🌈Feb 26

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice
Black, Queer, and Disabled people turned out in massive numbers to vote for Kamala Harris, despite her refusal to discuss ending support for an ongoing genocide campaign. We were outvoted by the two-thirds of straight white able-bodied males who voted for Trump.

We can also slice this by age: while less extreme, more than half of voters over 45 turned out for Trump in all 3 elections, while the majority of young people voted against him, again, in spite of the deep corruption and incompetence of the Democrat leadership.

Only 1/3rd of adult citizens voted for Trump in 2024.

To say that minorities, who have been exhausting ourselves to fight against the stupid decisions of an apathetic majority which is willing to throw us under the bus because the Democrats can't get their shit together, and the overwhelming corruption of both parties, have somehow not even voted, let alone tried to solve this issue, shows a massive lack of understanding of the entire issue.

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

Njord Feb 27

As an American who fled to The EU 2022, I feel like you have a few erroneous assumptions.

1. America isn't a healthy democracy, the correct term is "defective democracy" (which it has officially been classified as for a decade, I'll note), and the 2024 election was bad even by those standards, with the Democrats *appointing* a historically weak candidate who ran a weaker campaign with policy positions that were deeply out of step with the majority of Democratic voters.

2. That it would be bad for Europe if a few million (I sincerely doubt it'll top 5 million, and even that's probably *far* too high) Americans who wanted to escape fascism moved to Europe.

3. That anybiody would flee their home country, because it's "convenient." it's fear and despair, it's politicians calling for your arrest or worse, it's wanting to just live your life in peace.

Anyhow, to go back to the OP's first post, trans people in America are facing literal genocide (That's not hyperbole, it's the official opinion of The Lemkin institute (https://www.lemkininstitute.com/single-post/experts-warn-u-s-in-early-stages-of-genocide-against-trans-americans), so please don't tell them (or any one else targeted by the current regime for that matter) that they should stay if they want to flee.

Experts Warn U.S. in Early Stages of Genocide Against Trans Americans

Genocide scholars say policies targeting transgender Americans match early warning signs of mass atrocity.This piece has been updated from its original email version.Genocide scholars are sounding the alarm over what they describe as escalating attacks targeting transgender, nonbinary, and intersex Americans in the United States.Experts, including two former presidents of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), warn that the nation may already be in the early stages of committ

Lemkin Institute

@Njord I oppose the general "invitation to flee by students visa". Pls also read my 1st reply to the initial post. Queer are ~ 2% of the population = flesh, bones, blood, human, USAmerican, colored are ~40% = flesh, blood, bones, human, USAmerican, white ppl ~60% = flesh, blood, bones USamerican, ~50 men/women flesh, blood, bones, human USAmerican, ~45% non voters. ALL groups are flesh, blood, bones, human, USAmericans. @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

Neil Feb 27

That's not what happened.

What happened is the Democrats put forth a candidate who was wildly out of step with their base on critical issues. The onus was on the Democrats to realize this and make corrections. They arrogantly decided to engage in brinkmanship with their own base ("It's either Harris or fascism!") and it cost them the election.

@gneilyo "wildly out of step" because she was female & of color. Her politics were not the main issue. Ppl disagreed with her ISR politics - I hope those are now happy with what they voted for & what is Felon 47 is doing for ISR. Most Dems want a 100% candidate they cannot bring themselves to vote for a 95% cand. Reps vote for anything white/male. ~45% did not vote that is the main issue. @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

https://www.axios.com/2026/02/22/dnc-2024-autopsy-harris-gaza

Neil Feb 27

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice Not even the DNC believes that.

To millions of people backing a genocide with $billions in foreign aid isn't a minor difference of opinion, it is a deal-breaker.

The Democrats have been playing games like this FOR DECADES. They frame every presidential election as an existential crisis so don't dare demand anything of us. That won't fly anymore. They either need to start listening to their base or get used to losing.

Scoop: Dems working on secret report found Gaza cost Harris votes

The DNC's research on what went wrong in 2024 has been under lock and key since party leaders decided to hide it from the public.

Axios

@gneilyo this is the mindset that served you hell on earth. @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

Neil Feb 27

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice No, it is your mindset that voters should be happy with whatever shit their served. Blame falls squarely on the Democrats. It was their job to get the votes and they failed. If only they fought the Republicans as hard as they fight to hold back progressives like Zohran Mamdani.

The Orange Theme Feb 26

@juergen_hubert @Ilka4You @swaldman @alice What should we do?

@theorangetheme @Ilka4You @swaldman @alice

I dunno. I'm not going to play armchair general to people who are directly in the firing line.

Nuwagaba Gift Feb 26

@juergen_hubert
Is there still hope of making a change?

Always.

@juergen_hubert
That's great as long as we don't stop. Can i share with you about my project?

@juergen_hubert @Ilka4You

Chuck Feb 26

> Telling _other_ people to risk death while fighting an evil regime... is less so.

The subtlety of this is lost on many. While it is true the more people fighting on your side, the better chance you have of winning, it is the responsibility of those who risk less by fighting to be first into the fight. It is offensive to me when those same people refuse to fight because "it isn't my fight." THAT infuriates me.

gunstick Feb 27

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice it won't work. Example: Palestinians voted for Hamas. And now they are unable to remove the fascists from power. Same thing is happening in USA, just that we are not yet at the "unable to remove" part.

@juergen_hubert sign limit 2/2: ~1.3 Mio SYR refugess came to Europe within 12 years, this is doable. It worked. You now POTENTIALLY have ~170 Mio USAmericans wanting to flee USA. Europe has a housing and job crisis as it is. Inviting them on students visa is short sighted & 1 single solution for 1 single person, it floods all social systems & will consequently breaking health care, social support, flood the streets with homeless ppl.
@swaldman @alice

I think you _vastly_ overestimate the attraction of Europe for Americans. Most people will not ever move away from their home country because that's where their support networks are, even as the situation becomes worse and worse.

And even now, I have seen immigrants to the USA that they prefer living in progressive cities there than in comparably close-minded Europe. We are not the shining beacons of enlightenment we imagine ourselves to be.

@juergen_hubert fair point of view. We do not need to agree - this is what I really like on mastodon compared to other SM, you can have a civilzed convo from different angles. Thank you for the exchange of thoughts. 👍 @swaldman @alice

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @alice

Simon Waldman Feb 26

You seem to be assuming that everybody who voted Democrat (and around half of those who didn't vote) would be a refugee?

That's very different to "those who are being actively persecuted".

In fact I am sure that the vast majority of blue voters either (a) want to fight to turn things around, or (b) aren't sufficiently bothered to uproot their lives. They're not the people we're talking about here.

@juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice

I am staying here, despite being trans in a southern state with a right-wing General Assembly, but I totally respect the decisions of those who feel they can't risk their safety here. Some of them are my friends.

We each do what we can.

Succubard's Library Feb 27

Octavia Con Amore

@Ilka4You @juergen_hubert @swaldman @alice see, the people being rounded up into concentration camps or shot at aren't the people that fucked up the country, it's the people who have been trying to fight this every step of the way

*minorities* are the main target, and bt definition, we're *minorities*

@juergen_hubert
@swaldman @Alice
@gneilyo
@Njord
@Raccoon
@woozle
@joe_vinegar
@miss_rodent
@ChuckMcManis
I feel the need to clarify: I oppose the suggestion for all USAmericans to flee via students visa. B/C this is a hypothetical & imo for many reasons a bad idea. This hypothetical idea following I oppose for many as well hypothetical reasons. 330 Mio ppl fleeing would flood capacity & systems & worsen the sit. for everyone and not change 1 thing. 500 sign limit doesn’t help a deep convo.

@juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

Well, good news -- the number of people seeking to flee is only a tiny, tiny fraction of 330 million.

(P.S. many other fedi instances have larger character-limits; I agree that 500 is ridiculous for having substantial discussions.)

@woozle thank you ;) Yes, 500 limit is annoy.. It wont be possible to predict "real" numbers, we will only know "after the fact". Currently ~5k did leave in '25, double is expected for '26. Indeed a tiny number. Looking at housing though, for example AMS lacking 220k appartments missing to accomodate (just)students, Europe has diff. dimensions than USA. 1/2 @juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

@juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

Housing is a problem everywhere, it seems -- one major symptom of the plutonomy sucking the street-economy increasingly dry: more and more property is owned by fewer and fewer, who can then collaborate (often illegally, but it's too often always okay for them to do it) to raise prices to squeeze more life from the rest of us.

The mass media seems to be ignoring or glossing over this, and talking only about how we need to relax regulations so the property-owners can build more properties (which too often then become more useful to them as unoccupied "investment vehicles" than as residences).

...to oversimplify a bit, with a sprinkling of salt.

Ilka 🌐Feb 28

@woozle very true, again agreed. @juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

@woozle 2/2 interesting imo: 2nd/3rd/4th Gen Jews, whos ancestors fled Nazi GER, are looking to claim their right to a GER passport. No one could ever have imagined that 16 months ago. It needed Felon 47 to become FOTUS to get he world into that crazy state. @juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

@juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

I have to keep reminding myself that change, even when it's for the worst, is also an opportunity for progress -- because people who would have resisted new ideas before may now realize that there is no "keep things the way they are" or even "put things back the way they were".

@woozle yes, I share this view. I am a fan of change, but sometimes it hurts terribly before it gets better. I thought of the structural/society effects from covid that way as a chance for society to change for the better. But the positive impact was just for a blink of an eye. It then became even worse. (I am explicitly not talking about the impact on health, there is no positive side in that.)
@juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

@juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

We needed some new structures to be ready, to catch that opportunity. We did have some: video appointments are now a thing, and work-from-home is still much more common than it used to be.

...but a lot of opportunity was missed, also, because of the ways in which we were not ready.

@woozle ttue, thank you for this reminder. 🥰 @juergen_hubert @Alice @gneilyo @Njord @Raccoon @joe_vinegar @miss_rodent @ChuckMcManis

yelling jackal Feb 26

@swaldman @alice This would only list Kansas as unsafe. You'd have to run out of all "safe" states before they'd start accepting asylum claims from trans USians with a chance of success. Atm even Palestine or Syria aren't places where you can get guaranteed successful asylum claims (glances at Syrian refugees currently being sent back to unsafe situations).

@len Right, though I'll add a very critical caveat. If you live in the US, there are comparatively safer or less safe states. But you cannot enter ANY part of the US without interacting with the same people who gunned down two of our own citizens in Minnesota. And they've already bagged a lot of visitors, and will continue to, often on little or no pretext.

DON'T COME TO THE US. It is not safe to enter our country. Stay away. For your own safety.

yelling jackal Feb 26

@wesdym I was very specifically speaking about asylum claims from the US to the EU, /not/ about travel advisories to the US.

@swaldman Yeah, that's a real problem. And you'd expect Western European countries, if any, to be alert to this. I, too, wonder how much longer it will take for them to come around. I think most of them have are waiting for each other to make the first move.