Mastodawn

Corvus Volvens 𓄿 Feb 11

Discord claims "most users" will never go through an age verification process because they're already monitoring your behavior.

For the majority of adult users, we will be able to confirm your age group using information we already have. We use age prediction to determine, with high confidence, when a user is an adult. This allows many adults to access age-appropriate features without completing an explicit age check.

Gotta say, constant behavior analysis is not the warm and fuzzy blanket they seem to think it is.

https://discord.com/safety/how-discord-is-building-safer-experiences-for-teens

A Safer Discord by Default: New Teen Safety Updates

Discord is rolling out global teen safety updates designed to create age-appropriate experiences by default.

I am trying to read this as charitably as possible, if only to clarify my own concerns. There are definitely ways it could be worse. The "video selfie" component of the assurance process is analyzed on-device. But your ID is still sent to a third-party vendor. The claim is that the data is deleted "quickly—in most cases, immediately after age confirmation." But Discord doesn't actually control that; the unnamed third party does.

A spokesperson for Discord has said of the age inference model:

Discord’s age inference model uses account information such as account tenure, device and activity data, and aggregated, high-level patterns across Discord communities. Discord does not use private messages or any message content in this process.

https://www.theverge.com/tech/875309/discord-age-verification-global-roll-out

Account tenure could mean "Are you necessarily an adult assuming you created your account when you turned 13?" As far as device and activity data, that as vague as hell! And without reviewing messages, I don't love the idea that whatever data they're collecting could be used for verification. Whether it works or not, pretty creepy.

And I guess that's where I'm landing here. I have a very public record of being too credulous with these kinds of things in the past. I'm tired of getting burned. I'm tired of my community getting burned. This won't be the last creepy thing Discord pulls out on its road to IPO. I think I'd rather take the next offramp.

Discord will require a face scan or ID for full access next month

Starting in March, all Discord users will have a “teen” experience by default unless they complete age verification using a video selfie or ID.

The Verge

Marijke Luttekes Feb 11

@mttaggart "We analyzed all your private messages, public messages, server selections, active hours, and the level of excitement you feel at getting socks as a gift, just so we can validate that you are an adult!"

Yay, Discord, yay. 😒

Marijke Luttekes Feb 11

@mttaggart On a more serious note, I could imagine them skipping age verification for accounts of a certain age. For example, unless someone created an account when they were 8, then a 10-year-old account would probably belong to an adult.

But other than that, they will surely feed everything to a big AI and have their fun with it.

Riley S. Faelan Feb 11

@mahryekuh "Here, kid, I want you to have this heirloom account that was once created by your great-grandfather. Thanks to the grandfather clause, it's exempt from all further verification!"

Simon Zerafa Feb 11

@mahryekuh @mttaggart

Just look up your ID with @haveibeenpwned to see if you exist or not

Marijke Luttekes Feb 11

@simonzerafa @mttaggart @haveibeenpwned How does that relate to the original post?

Oliver D. Reithmaier Feb 11

@mttaggart how else would they make money? Not that I want to defend data selling at all, I hate it with a passion, but at some point we need to be asking ourselves what exactly it is we are expecting from for-profit companies.

@odr_k4tana Nitro...exists? So does their ad program, Quests. They are bending the knee to age verification globally in anticipation of potential legislation, and doing so with the sketchiest of tech, after already losing 70k users' PII in a breach.

This isn't about revenue.

Oliver D. Reithmaier Feb 11

@mttaggart really? From a cost perspective, it makes sense. You have the system already, and legislation might change. Rather than maintaining two states, you kill one and make the one you have to implement anyways default. They were bought by an investor, they need to produce value. Cutting costs is the go-to for that.

@odr_k4tana I don't really know why you feel the need to jump to defend the poor suffering corporation prepping for an IPO. But lots of things "make sense" from a pure revenue perspective that are at odds with user's best interests.

Oliver D. Reithmaier Feb 11

@mttaggart I don't give a shit about discord. Let it burn, I don't care. All I said was to demonstrate why this, in my eyes, is very much about revenue. Legislative threats can translate into real issues fast. Execs perceiving such threats will adjust their way of doing things to minimize the potential impact.

Fluffy Kitty Cat Feb 11

@mttaggart @odr_k4tana it's become clear that social and community building internet services cannot be ran by for profit companies. It doesn't work

Oliver D. Reithmaier Feb 12

@fluffykittycat @mttaggart yes, unless you're going full Saruman

cwicseolfor Feb 11

@mttaggart
^^^
I could swear that exact paragraph was not there yesterday when I read this page. The article has an editorial update supporting that impression.

I know they may mean “accounts over five years old since you had to be thirteen to apply legally” but JEEEEEEEZ.

@mttaggart The Miranda warnings apply now to more that just the cops.

Funny thing is when I was young, I often got told i seemed so “mature”. Wonder if I would’ve passed this vibe check. Now that I’m older, I get told I seemed young, so again, would I pass it

eviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Feb 11

@mttaggart "We don't need your billing address. We know where you live."

Graham Sutherland / Polynomial Feb 11

@mttaggart have people really forgotten the term "chilling effect"? applies so hard here.

Tim Hergert Feb 11

@mttaggart but from what I am led to believe - if they verify your age via this method or uploading one's identity documents to a third-party server secured with spit and bailing wire — they can help you find your dog.

@mttaggart I'm wondering, has somebody tried to object to Discord making automated decisions (and profiling)? GDPR art. 21 gives that power to the user (“the data subject”), and I would (naïvely) think that you do not need to make automated decisions when providing a chat service…

(not a legal advice, I am not a lawyer, though I would be interested what would happen…)

William Johnson Feb 11

@mttaggart Honestly, it all feels like Discord is trying to convince us that constantly tracking every click is cute and helpful. In reality, it’s just constant surveillance.

🔹 Jakob Givoni Feb 11

@mttaggart How is determining someone's age with "high confidence" useful?

I mean, how high is it?

I can determine someone's age with "high confidence" just by asking them about it.

Because most people don't lie.

Surely Age Verification is not that trivial.

🔹 Jakob Givoni Feb 11

@mttaggart It's like your bank asking you what your name is before handing you (someone else's) money.

SpaceLifeForm Feb 11

The bot accounts are pre-approved.

Calligrafae Feb 11

@mttaggart so they decide a user is an adult, when they start acting adult enough.

*that's* never been a sketchy justification for abuse, nooooooo...

Simon Zerafa Feb 11

To late Discord. To Late... 🤨

@mttaggart lol i geniuely would like to see stats of 18y accounts (but i dont have mine glass ball running to peak into future) getting flagged anyway by their allegedly glass ball powered ai verification process...

@mttaggart So there is monitoring on Discord too. Damnnn. I wished I was not being profiled.

@mttaggart There's been some content I haven't been able to see recently, because my ID has not been verified. Retrocomputing stuff on retrocomputing channels. It's so dumb I have no words. Everyone really needs to get off discord.

@mttaggart The alternatives we have left if we want to abandon Discord are Matrix (ELement/Fluffychat), XMPP, or Stoat Chat (the latter should be taken with a grain of salt until they open the code and audit it as FOSS).

@limon https://infosec.exchange/@mttaggart/116041595378233675

Taggart (@[email protected])

I see it's once again time to post this: https://taggart-tech.com/discord-alternatives

Infosec Exchange

@limon @mttaggart Do not forget Spacebar! It's FOSS, self hostable, and reimplements the Discord's API so well that Discord bots and the very official Discord client can be patched to work on Spacebar.
https://spacebar.chat

SpacebarChat - Selfhosted, secure communication that you're already familiar with

Spacebar is a free and open source reverse engineering and reimplementation of Discord, including both the backend and frontend. It's a chat platform similar to Slack and Rocket.chat

@U3lsdmll @mttaggart Thank you.

@mttaggart We know how old you are cause we’ve been stalking you since you signed up. And they think that’s perfectly fine. That’s the part that really gets me angry