GlyphShitty people, shitty values, shitty culture. https://fed.brid.gy/r/https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:hafxlnw235qrcil2lpohp2ly/post/3lr5q6dqynk2e #USPol
Random ParticipationI really cannot stress this enough. When I visited France, I visited a building where I read an entry in a log book where a Nazi recorded my great-grandmother's death in the camps. The name of this building was the "Musée de la Résistance et de la *Déportation*". It was not the "museum of the death camps" because they don't _call_ them death camps. While it's happening, they call it "deportations". The name "death camps" shows up once the occupying army is rolling their tanks into your capital.
When I say that "abolishing ICE is the centrist position" I mean that as someone who, perhaps as a squishy centrist lib dummy, does not want violence. This is the position that ICE agents should favor. They should favor it because the other thing, the "left-wing" position, the thing that any student of history can tell you *is what happens* to the "deportation police" once such a thing exists, is *much, much worse for them*. And the LA protests are approaching that outcome *fast*.
Like, speaking of France, can anybody else think of a time that a popular uprising targeted a prison in an urban center where political prisoners were being taken? Anyone pass world history in high school and remember anything interesting that happened to the people *running* that prison? Did it work out really well for them?
I'm just… I'm so fucking tired.
DziadekImpossible to persuade American people that racist attitudes and the unbridled use of violence are endemic in the US. From old Confederate states where they dominate and are talked about openly, through the majority of the #MAGA states where they enjoy majority support. Even in Blue states like MN there’s a sizeable minority still positive towards ICE. They should have listened to what black people were telling them.
@DziadekMick on the one hand, in the large, you are correct. however this is fatalistic and inaccurate in the impression that it gives. there were a lot of white abolitionists in the antebellum north. there are a lot of white people fighting for their neighbors in minnesota right now, literally putting their bodies on the line and getting killed. a lot of people *are* convinceable; a lot are already convinced. as for that irredeemable minority, well, they will hopefully get theirs one day
I remain to be convinced there are sufficient numbers to rule out the US being a racist country. I can see that there is a lot of push-back to what ICE is doing. What isn’t evident was as much push-back when ICE was hitting on non-white people. I note that the ICE “mission” still has majority support (below).
And away from the current “Aktion,” how can Alabama (and other Red states) run prisons as slave camps that are so blatantly racist in a non-racist country?
@DziadekMick If I had to choose "is America a racist country", yeah, of course. But miring any discussion in "is it racist or non-racist" is a debate about transcendental essential characteristics and not material reality. America does a lot of racist shit. A lot of Americans think that's bad. A majority? Depends how you count. But the racist/not-racist axis is a waste of time, as Jay Smooth explained … yeesh … 17 years ago now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist
🦃 Kat Callahan 
🦃A lot of people working for or with or as the state have forgotten the social contract isn't a gift from those on high. Rather it is a promise that in exchange for basic levels of liberty and welfare, the working classes don't rise up in very violent revolt.
Coach Pāṇini ®
LisPi@glyph @becomethewaifu It unfortunately worked far too well. Many of them were neither executed, contained nor rehabilitated, they just hid in the background and applied some more subtlety in spreading their corruption after the war.
Of course a lot of them got exactly what they deserved, but not enough for my liking.
Of course a lot of them got exactly what they deserved, but not enough for my liking.
qurlyjoe@glyph
Ay, there’s the rub. Too many Americans don’t remember anything they were “taught” in high school history. Also, the citizenry of that urban center were a lot more homogeneous then, and it was easier to feel commonality with your neighbors. These days we’ve been played so that we don’t feel commonality across all the divisions we’ve been led to believe in. Also 2, people still think there’s a chance they’ll squeak thru and not lose too much.
Ay, there’s the rub. Too many Americans don’t remember anything they were “taught” in high school history. Also, the citizenry of that urban center were a lot more homogeneous then, and it was easier to feel commonality with your neighbors. These days we’ve been played so that we don’t feel commonality across all the divisions we’ve been led to believe in. Also 2, people still think there’s a chance they’ll squeak thru and not lose too much.
RustyRingAs a former high school teacher who started during the Reagan regime, let me assure you, teaching history in the public schools today is like playing Twister in a minefield. That's why it's become so dumbed-down and fascist-friendly.
Teachers get beaten up for suggesting there are any complex topics in America's past, by administrators, parents, and radicalized students. Burns you out right fast.
JP@glyph leftists don't want violence either, we just accept the necessity of it in defending society against the right. if fascists take over your hometown and start arresting people and you fight back you didn't suddenly become leftist, you simply found yourself in a different power dynamic closer to reality.
in general we should reject characterizations of violence as a political valence. much of the unspeakable violence of our current era has been in the defense of liberal centrist order.
in general we should reject characterizations of violence as a political valence. much of the unspeakable violence of our current era has been in the defense of liberal centrist order.
Daughter of DiscordI mean, "abolish ICE as an institution" should be preferable to the pigs than "kill every ICE cop in self-defense of our communities"
Becca
genehack@glyph *jedi hug* (if not unwanted).
Holler if I can do anything to help. ✊
Histoires Mythiques@glyph Was it in Besançon? If so, I've been to that museum three times. Chilling.
Nelson@glyph Just curious, was this in Besançon or Grenoble? I guess there are two museums in France called the Museum of the Resistance and Deportation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_de_la_R%C3%A9sistance_et_de_la_D%C3%A9portation
SouprMatt@glyph This is clearly spelled out in the Holocaust museum in the USA too.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/deportations
Willa 
@glyph So we can call them that in… a couple days? 🫠
@glyph Ah yes, "deported" to the afterlife.
Preuk@glyph this is a us-centric view. In France we DO talk about concentration camps and extermination camps. As well as transit camps and the fact that an awful lot of people didn't even arrive there, dying during transportation. This is why "deportation" is the umbrella term we use for this. So please consider people here might know a thing or two about it too. Thank you.
@Preuk first off, yes, I am talking about a phenomenon currently occurring in the US, so yes, it is “US-centric”. I don’t know why you’ve phrased this as if you’re correcting me.
@Preuk also, you’ve confused the tenses and the antecedents here. in fairness “they” was somewhat ambiguous here, so let me spell it out for you: the “they” I am referring to is *the political faction doing the death camps*. the initial program referred to in germany and france was called “deportation” to manufacture consent, just as it is in the US today. and the time period during which “they” refer to the camps this way is while it’s happening. is france also building death camps *today*?
@glyph Oh, my bad. I misunderstood this part, sorry. Language manipulation to manufacture consent was and still is a terribly effective tool.
The fact remains there is a huge lexical gap between US and Europe regarding WW2 events, with usually "softer" wordings here because of the many specific forms and targets of death engineering that took place here.
I guess it's just like we Europeans might consider ICE actions as targeting Mexicans, while nationality doesn't protect anyone from them...
@Preuk ICE's ethnic targeting is incredibly bizarre and confused. Like, in that viral video where an ICE agent is threatening "you raise your voice, I erase your voice", the agent has a relatively thick latin accent of some kind, clearly articulating a "j" sound in "you". This is like an SS agent with a thick yiddish accent, and yet, it seeems to be very common. Utterly ideologically incoherent, and even for someone (like me) completely steeped in this, *deeply* difficult to understand.
@Preuk Like it's beyond even "that's weird aren't you a member of the targeted group", it's that the whole legal framework of Kavanaugh stops is that *this specific accent* is probable cause to detain, abuse, disappear and potentially murder a person. I *think* I understand what's going on here but the degree of cognitive dissonance required to hold it in my brain is almost physically painful
@glyph Unfortunately, that doesn't even surprise me. Going back once again to WW2 there were such persons inside the camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo
And we can see in Europe that a lot of 2nd/3rd generation from immigrant ancestry try to "shut the door" behind themselves. I don't know about US, but I guess there are similar patterns there too.
@Preuk The expression we use here is 'pull up the ladder behind them' but yes that's what's happpening. There's an additional thing where the asylum / immigration procedures in the US from 30 years ago were much easier, which means that there is a surprisingly large of elderly naturalized citizen refugees who believe that "coming here the right way" means filling out a few forms and waiting a year or two before taking your citizenship oath, not the kafkaesque nightmare it is today
Fazal Majid@glyph that's because the camps not in France. Except the Natzweiler-Struthof, in Alsace, that Nazi Germany had legally annexed. The lies we tell ourselves to avoid facing the truth...
There are consequences, for instance, the Nazis responsible for murdering 40,000 in the Channel Islands weren't fully prosecuted because it was too embarrassing for the British government to acknowledge the extent of local authorities' collaboration with the occupier.