Mastodawn

crrodriguez Nov 3

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)

To everyone who says ‘install Linux’ as a solution to Windows problems (or ‘install LibreOffice’ as a solution to MS Office problems), imagine how you would react if you posted about Linux problems and all of the responses were ‘install Haiku’. Would it work? Maybe, but the person saying it has no idea what you do on Linux, whether the apps that you use run on Haiku (or have alternatives that you could switch to). Neither of you have a clear understanding of how much time and effort the switch would take, or what the network effects are that make switching hard.

If you have actually engaged with them, understood their requirements fully, and have a migration path outlined for them, great. If you’re just being a dick, think about how that makes people perceive Linux users: Maybe that isn’t a great way of driving adoption.

#Linux #Haiku #Windows

Sun Microdevil Pte Ltd Nov 2

@david_chisnall "Get a Mac/install Windows, why are you making your life hard?" is my current favorite go to reply atm but maybe I should ask them to install a BSD or Haiku, yes

@koakuma @david_chisnall
> maybe I should ask them to install a BSD or Haiku
the problem with this is that an average linux nerd (with a history of distrohopping) might have already used them before and will have multiple reasons on why it wouldn't work for them

@snowy @david_chisnall @koakuma

Yeah, that is the most prominent difference. Usual Windows and MacOS user probably never even tried Linux, and won't be able to install any OS on their own, as even reinstalling Windows is something they ask local IT person to do for them, and most Linux users probably tried a lot of OS offering before settling on something.

For that kind of Windows user to use Linux, it needs to be as close as possible in terms of working out of the box and installing apps they need, and despite all efforts, out of box distros vary in experience between devices, and apart from GUI package managers acting like a straightforward "store" for apps and if the OS is correct you being able to double click packages, software installation and availability is usually not quite straightforward (even if you can install some software in Wine it usually requires tinkering, only games can be easy and even then it's usually only legally bought ones).

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 2

@tiredbun @snowy @koakuma

Switching operating systems is usually the easy bit. But most people who use Windows have at least one Windows-only app. Even the portable apps require them to migrate settings across. That can be a complicated and long process.

The same with office suites. LibreOffice might be fine, but maybe the thing that you need Office for is actually a business app written in VBA with ODBC connections to an Access database. Maybe it’s for the collaborative editing on SharePoint. Maybe it’s the fact that PowerPoint presented via Teams renders locally and so all of the accessibility features work for remote participants. Maybe it’s integration with some third-party system that depends on APIs exposed by MS Office.

If you understand all of these constraints and which ones apply to the person you are talking to, then you can give them good advice.

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma great thread. I, for one, would love to see someone write an app which ferrets out the existence/ recent usage of these migration blockers, and presents a report. The app looks to all the "recents" so as to gain a sense of what the system is used for.

Christian Nov 2

@david_chisnall a business app written in VBA with ODBC connection to an Access DB is something you don't even want on Windows anymore these days. 😉

But I agree with you. If you understand all the constraints you can give good advice even for their setup on Windows. 😏

@tiredbun @snowy @koakuma

James Widman Nov 2

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma this is making me re-think the push for developing programs as native apps (as opposed to browser-based apps) over the past decade or so.

if a user depends only on browser-based apps, then to a large extent they don't need to make any adjustments when you completely replace the OS (unless they're going to/from macOS and they depend on key bindings).

Alexander The 1st Nov 3

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma For me, the core thing is that in my experience with Linux distributions (Often in VMs or in SSH contexts), I find myself fighting the system to do what I want to do.

A most recent example - I wanted to install Docker Desktop on an Ubuntu VM so that I could set it up to be a node of my host machine, and...I had to settle for individual installations of Docker and Kubernetes, because apparently the official instructions to install Docker-Desktop did not work (Something about being unable to use a .deb file to install a thing that it said to do?)

On Windows, if an installation goes badly, that would not fly for users, so it just does not happen 90% (To the point that Windows tries to make old software still work on new OSes specifically to avoid being blamed for other bad software decisions.), but it's much more common in my experience on a Linux distro that something like that happens.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 3

@AT1ST @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma

I’ve never tried Docker Desktop on Linux (the only value it has to me beyond the CLI version, which is open source, is that it manages a VM on Windows and macOS, I don’t need that on Linux), but Ubuntu was the worst.

We have a dev container so someone who opens our repo with VS Code and has the dev container extension installed gets a working development environment. By default, Ubuntu wants to install both VS Code and Docker in snaps. Both are installed without the permissions they need to actually run, and they are in isolated worlds so the dev container extension in VS Code can’t talk to the Docker daemon.

The way to get something that actually works was to add third-party apt repos for both and install the packages. Complete mess. I remember when Ubuntu was meant to be the easy-to-use Linux distro, and these days it’s harder to make things work with it than it is on FreeBSD.

Alexander The 1st Nov 3

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma Oh...um, quick question then - can a snaps package installation interact with a apt package installation? Or is not just snap packages talking to other snap packages?

Alexander The 1st Nov 3

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma (Though my point was more broader to Linux in my experience - I've had similar problems with Centos [Which keeps moving their yum packages to different URLs, so you need to reconfigure that before doing a yum install], or Alpine, and that is before trying to give myself passwordless sudo so I can automate something. It kind of feels like a more intrusive UAC prompt in my experience, only I have to keep re-entering my password by default...which I feel like Windows quickly got rid of for administrator accounts on a local machine.).

Marcin Cieślak Nov 3

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma I wonder how many preachers do some serious work in tools like LibreOffice.

I forced myself to do a presentation in Impress and a two-language two column text in Writer and it was horrible experience. For example, maintaining consistent language property setting on a paragraph was impossible and yes, I know how to use “styles”.

I like editing of PDFs in Draw though.

@david_chisnall Never understood why people do this.

It's cult behavior and childish at the same time.

@patnat
Oooh, oooh, I know!

It's because as a Linux user, you have to deal with non standard imposed BS from Microsoft *all the time*, and people asking you why you're weird *all the time*.

And it feels right to point to people they own the consequences of their choices, be it voting Republican or using Windows. Or for that matter running Linux or coding whatever progressive option tickles you.

@david_chisnall

Go on then.

Maybe you can hand out flyers in a pedestrian zone, ring at random homes or kidnap and hit them with a wrench until they try and like Linux?

Ridiculous.

@david_chisnall

@patnat
That, precisely, would be fascist behaviour.

Which, you know, Windows users are enabling. Microsoft is, after all, actively trying to sabotage the works of the ICC...

So maybe nagging is actually pretty proportionate, considering.

@david_chisnall

That's a ridiculous answer.

@veroandi Well, even people like you will grow up one day and not behave themselves like radicalized teeanagers.

Second ridiculous answer, since you don't know me.

Karl Pettersson Nov 2

@david_chisnall Varying the distance:
Problems with #ubuntu? Install #alpinelinux.
Problems with Linux? Install #OpenBSD.

Jeff McNeill Nov 2

@david_chisnall As a former windows user, and there are many of us, Linux and LibreOffice are viable replacements for their alternatives. Not sure what is wrong with this quite timely information.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 2

The fact that you don’t see how ‘it worked for me and will therefore work for other people, and I don’t need to understand their requirements or the constraints of their situation’ makes you come across as a complete dick means that I probably can’t help you.

Jeff McNeill Nov 5

@david_chisnall naw fam, you the one here

degenerating degenerate Nov 2

@jeffmcneill @david_chisnall

Right... there is nothing wrong with that information, sharing is caring.

The major browsers, LO, thunderbird if you need IMAP and many other apps like inkscape and so on are crossplatform.

I would guess nowadays, for many people much of their stuff is done one way or another in the browser, including, eg, gmail and socials.

It's possible for them to nondestructively try switching their workflows while still entirely on windows / mac, removing a lot of risk.

Jeff McNeill Nov 5

@hopeless @david_chisnall Indeed, I did exactly that, switched to open source, cross-platform apps first, then to Linux. Avoided too steep a learning curve by doing things in stages.

rainynight65 Nov 2

@david_chisnall every time I search the net for solutions to problems I have with Linux, I realise that the Linux community at large is the greatest blocker to wider Linux adoption.

Gabriel Adrian Samfira Nov 2

@david_chisnall in my teens (which depressingly was 25 years ago) I used to say that. Afterwards I went with "use whatever you're comfortable with". But with Windows 11, I started thinking it again. Someone called windows 11 a "Sloperating system" (can't remember who). And it fits so well.

But yes. Throwing a "just use linux" comment out there as a solution, helps no one. It may (heavy emphasis on *may*) fix one issue, but creates many others due to lack of familiarity and compatibility.

Ohne Haare Nov 2

@david_chisnall I use arch, btw

@david_chisnall cool, I've never heard of Haiku. I'll install it in a VM tomorrow, to see what it is. Thanks for the recommendation

@david_chisnall 100% agree. Even I, someone with various flavors of Linux on different computers am having a hard time switching to Linux on my main computer (a Mac).

Installing Linux isn’t the hard part, finding suitable alternatives to all my Mac applications is.

@david_chisnall all i hear is blah blah linux users suck for being right blah blah blah

@david_chisnall Since most Linux distro can be tried without installation then it might be better to say ‘try linux’ .
Most of peoples who complains about windows will get the ‘install linux’ comment, as windows being the main issue there is not so much to do to correct it.

Jack Yan (甄爵恩)Nov 2

@david_chisnall I can totally relate. The Mac cult on Twitter was like this.

https://mastodon.social/@jackyan/115466374699893566

Gulf Of Mexico Keir Hardie Nov 2

@jackyan @david_chisnall I remember these people in real life too, some granny would be like "I need help changing the paper size when printing" and they'd be "you need to get a Mac", like a Scientologist or something.

Jack Yan (甄爵恩)Nov 2

@scatterkeir It was so annoying, and I think I was right to refer to them as a cult—no other way to describe them. When someone had issues, Windows, Linux or Mac OS, Iʼd try to offer something useful if I could! @david_chisnall

daubertla Nov 2

@david_chisnall I switched recently from Windows 10 to Linux. I was fortunate enough to have an older computer that I could load things on and play with before doing my main PC. I read how everyone LOVES Mint but I absolutely did not. I tried four or five OS options before settling on Kubuntu, which to me was quite intuitive. Although the idea of "Try Linux" is great, you honestly cannot tell a whole lot until you can customize it and that requires an install. DistroSea.com has a bunch to try and it was helpful to try some. Some you could look at and easily say "NO". The actual install was not that bad once I found all the actual steps but I can honestly say it took a few days to get the first one installed. Once I had all the right steps, they went pretty quick and I could swap one out in about an hour but the first one was incredibly frustrating. I am relatively techy so can imagine the frustration for someone less so. My husband would never be able to do it on his own with the information readily available.
Some Linux apps are available for Windows so people can try them before making the switch. Libre Office and Open Office, many browsers are. Several things on my computer required console installs and many people are not comfortable doing things that way.

Stumpy The Mutt Nov 2

@david_chisnall I think "Install Linux" is the computer nerd equivalent to "Git gud" and just about as helpful.

@david_chisnall

The original "lore" was a motto that began at a time when you wanted to let people know that there were alternatives to Windows. And that's still true, even more so now with the whole Windows 10 thing.

Of course, I agree that simply saying "Install Linux" won't convince a Windows user who, in most cases, isn't aware of the existence of other operating systems and has been anesthetized by years of brainwashing with that type of ecosystem.

Alex T Newman Nov 2

@david_chisnall I feel like I can’t go five minutes without running into rabid Haiku propaganda like this online

@david_chisnall

One of the best things about the Linux environment is the total lack of slick marketing campaigns, which are replaced by user's genuine feelings about the OS.

Give the FOSS community HALF the marketing budget of Microsoft or Google or Apple and the 'message' might be more coherent.

I take your point though, but I suggest 'it's the nature of the beast' with word-of-mouth 'marketing'.

@david_chisnall I mean on the internet it sounds like that but Linux install parties are not uncommon I think, it's driven by the exact same feeling but giving people the assurance that there's someone to help them and find a solution to their specific problems

@david_chisnall Like, that kinda makes me feel like it's also a problem in the medium itself. The (not) social interactions on the nets make this kind of interaction less likely to happen. I know you say it in good faith and it's good to be aware of it but I think knowing someone's concerns and engaging with them to actually build a migration path is kinda difficult in a medium like the internet if you're not their friend already, idk

Luis Carlos Nov 3

@x0 @david_chisnall Ah, the hole install linux thing eh?

UkeleleEric Nov 3

@david_chisnall It also doesn't take into consideration those that might have to remain on Windows (work computer, particular software in use, or whatever).

@UkeleleEric @david_chisnall Not worse, but even more ironic if they suggest it to people who have been using desktop linux for 15-20 years and still have some need for a windows PC.

Chaotic Catboy Nov 7

@david_chisnall You seem to have hit a nerve with a few people here. Nice work

Shaula Evans Nov 8

@david_chisnall Thank you.