David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 2

To everyone who says ‘install Linux’ as a solution to Windows problems (or ‘install LibreOffice’ as a solution to MS Office problems), imagine how you would react if you posted about Linux problems and all of the responses were ‘install Haiku’. Would it work? Maybe, but the person saying it has no idea what you do on Linux, whether the apps that you use run on Haiku (or have alternatives that you could switch to). Neither of you have a clear understanding of how much time and effort the switch would take, or what the network effects are that make switching hard.

If you have actually engaged with them, understood their requirements fully, and have a migration path outlined for them, great. If you’re just being a dick, think about how that makes people perceive Linux users: Maybe that isn’t a great way of driving adoption.

#Linux #Haiku #Windows

Show threadSun Microdevil Pte LtdNov 2
@david_chisnall "Get a Mac/install Windows, why are you making your life hard?" is my current favorite go to reply atm but maybe I should ask them to install a BSD or Haiku, yes 
Show threadhappyNov 2
@koakuma @david_chisnall
> maybe I should ask them to install a BSD or Haiku
the problem with this is that an average linux nerd (with a history of distrohopping) might have already used them before and will have multiple reasons on why it wouldn't work for them
Show threadTired Bunny  Nov 2
@snowy @david_chisnall @koakuma

Yeah, that is the most prominent difference. Usual Windows and MacOS user probably never even tried Linux, and won't be able to install any OS on their own, as even reinstalling Windows is something they ask local IT person to do for them, and most Linux users probably tried a lot of OS offering before settling on something.

For that kind of Windows user to use Linux, it needs to be as close as possible in terms of working out of the box and installing apps they need, and despite all efforts, out of box distros vary in experience between devices, and apart from GUI package managers acting like a straightforward "store" for apps and if the OS is correct you being able to double click packages, software installation and availability is usually not quite straightforward (even if you can install some software in Wine it usually requires tinkering, only games can be easy and even then it's usually only legally bought ones).
Show threadDavid Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 2

@tiredbun @snowy @koakuma

Switching operating systems is usually the easy bit. But most people who use Windows have at least one Windows-only app. Even the portable apps require them to migrate settings across. That can be a complicated and long process.

The same with office suites. LibreOffice might be fine, but maybe the thing that you need Office for is actually a business app written in VBA with ODBC connections to an Access database. Maybe it’s for the collaborative editing on SharePoint. Maybe it’s the fact that PowerPoint presented via Teams renders locally and so all of the accessibility features work for remote participants. Maybe it’s integration with some third-party system that depends on APIs exposed by MS Office.

If you understand all of these constraints and which ones apply to the person you are talking to, then you can give them good advice.

Show threadAlexander The 1st

@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma For me, the core thing is that in my experience with Linux distributions (Often in VMs or in SSH contexts), I find myself fighting the system to do what I want to do.

A most recent example - I wanted to install Docker Desktop on an Ubuntu VM so that I could set it up to be a node of my host machine, and...I had to settle for individual installations of Docker and Kubernetes, because apparently the official instructions to install Docker-Desktop did not work (Something about being unable to use a .deb file to install a thing that it said to do?)

On Windows, if an installation goes badly, that would not fly for users, so it just does not happen 90% (To the point that Windows tries to make old software still work on new OSes specifically to avoid being blamed for other bad software decisions.), but it's much more common in my experience on a Linux distro that something like that happens.

Nov 3 at 8:44amWeb
Show threadDavid Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Nov 3

@AT1ST @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma

I’ve never tried Docker Desktop on Linux (the only value it has to me beyond the CLI version, which is open source, is that it manages a VM on Windows and macOS, I don’t need that on Linux), but Ubuntu was the worst.

We have a dev container so someone who opens our repo with VS Code and has the dev container extension installed gets a working development environment. By default, Ubuntu wants to install both VS Code and Docker in snaps. Both are installed without the permissions they need to actually run, and they are in isolated worlds so the dev container extension in VS Code can’t talk to the Docker daemon.

The way to get something that actually works was to add third-party apt repos for both and install the packages. Complete mess. I remember when Ubuntu was meant to be the easy-to-use Linux distro, and these days it’s harder to make things work with it than it is on FreeBSD.

Show threadAlexander The 1stNov 3
@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma Oh...um, quick question then - can a snaps package installation interact with a apt package installation? Or is not just snap packages talking to other snap packages?
Show threadAlexander The 1stNov 3
@david_chisnall @tiredbun @snowy @koakuma (Though my point was more broader to Linux in my experience - I've had similar problems with Centos [Which keeps moving their yum packages to different URLs, so you need to reconfigure that before doing a yum install], or Alpine, and that is before trying to give myself passwordless sudo so I can automate something. It kind of feels like a more intrusive UAC prompt in my experience, only I have to keep re-entering my password by default...which I feel like Windows quickly got rid of for administrator accounts on a local machine.).