Anon OpinOct 13
Growing up, the main bus in my town was every 10 minutes and always packed. I didn't worry about timetables I just left the house and knew it would be there. Now it's every half hour and completely deserted. This is no coincidence. Fund buses properly and people will use them.
Show threadEstarriol, Terrorist DragonOct 13

@anon_opin

have them reliable and plentiful and people use them.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 13
@Thebratdragon @anon_opin But also: as usage falls off, running routes becomes unprofitable, so companies run the buses less frequently. It's a vicious circle.
Show thread\u2014Oct 13
@mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin have you considered that not everything should be required to run at a profit?
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕

@pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes, I have considered it and agreed the heck out of it.

The real question is whether the companies running these routes have considered it. I doubt it.

Oct 13 at 9:31pmWeb
Show thread\u2014Oct 13
@mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin ok, I'll go you one further: have you considered that none of this should be in private hands?
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 13
@pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes, I have considered that and agree the heck out out it. But I don't see how to fix it.
Show threadJon WoodOct 14
@mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin the right people just have to want it. After that it’s quite simple, the council buys some busses and starts running routes. For extra value the council says to the current operators they’re going to do so, and asks if those operators fancy selling their busses and cutting their losses before their routes are abandoned because they cost 10x as much and run worse.
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 14

@jon @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin "The right people just have to want it. After that it’s quite simple." This is true, but not really useful, It's lile saying "To prepare a cheetah casserole, you just have to catch a cheetah. after that it's quite simple."

How can we make the right people want it? I don't see a straightforward route to this.

Show threadhicksy2Oct 17
@jon @pikesley @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin buys some busses, buys a depot, employs mechanics to maintain them, employs admin staff to do the DVSA paperwork as a bus operator, pays the insurance, competes with the big cos who gets interested all of a sudden. Buying buses and setting up the stuff to run them isn't a 'quite simple' Friday afternoon jolly. Sorry I forgot about employing anyone to drive them/train drivers. Deals with Reformheads objecting to the depot, forgot that.
Show thread\u2014Oct 17

@hicksy2 @jon @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

BETTER THINGS AREN'T POSSIBLE well done you

Show threadhicksy2Oct 17
@pikesley @jon @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin I didn't say impossible, I was just being realistic.
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 17
@hicksy2 @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Exactly. For councils to do this (which I would welcome), incentives need to be aligned. And I have no idea how to make that happen.
Show threadJon WoodOct 17
@mike @hicksy2 @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin
Show threadhicksy2Oct 17
@mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin they also need £10-50Mn from somewhere....
Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@hicksy2 @mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin and the right to spend that on providing a public service

(whilst one might be inclined to expect that local councils, bodies elected to provide local services, are allowed to provide services, the reality is …thatcher'd)

Show threadJon WoodOct 19
@purple @hicksy2 @mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin you all realise parliament can pass laws right? If they really wanted to they could just pass one that says all the bus companies belong to councils now, but everyone is so absorbed in the idea that we can’t upset businesses or The Market we refuse to do anything good.
Show thread\u2014Oct 19

@jon @mike @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2

we have to keep The Money happy at all costs, Jon

Thatcher casts a very long shadow

Show threadhicksy2Oct 19
@jon @pikesley @mike @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin why is everyone so bothered about how to do it, who wants it, etc.? Spouting a bunch of meaningless political jargon. What do I want? Re-instate £2 bus cap. Restore my local service to 2015 levels (6 an hour). Free travel for under 16s with adults. Redeploy some politicians in revenue earning service to pay for it. If it doesn't pay for itself. Our local mayor is going on about taking control of buses yada yada yada. Just improve them!!!!
Show threadEstarriol, Terrorist DragonOct 19

@jon @pikesley @mike @purple @anon_opin @hicksy2

all you need to do is remove all the obstacles to councils running there own buses, that were deliberately put in place to make them uneconomic to tender for them when privatisation was first done, see also NHS services, housing etc etc etc.

Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@Thebratdragon @jon @pikesley @mike @anon_opin @hicksy2 ^ this exactly.

Over the last 40 odd years local authorities have been intentionally, somewhat explicitly, repeatedly undermined to the point they largely can't do ‘anything’.

Even things you wouldn't think of as privatised, like education, have largely been put out of reach of education authorities. Yes really.

(and we wonder why local elections get such little turn out)

But it very much doesn't have to be this way, we can, should, must, return power to our local bodies, and then we might start to get somewhere.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 19

@jon @pikesley @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 Isn't there a word for governments that just take stuff from people?

It's all fun and games while they're taking things we like from people we don't like and giving them others who we trust.

How confident are we that it would stop there?

Show thread\u2014Oct 19
@mike @jon @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 governments that take things that obviously, transparently ought to be in public hands and place them in public hands?
Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@jon @pikesley @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 Parliament certainly can pass laws, indeed there is a Bus Services Bill in progress at the moment which seems broadly positive, we also have a centuries long history of compulsory purchase and nationalisation, forgotten in more recent times, and I for one would welcome renewed use of such measures — I'd also really like our democratically elected local bodies to be allowed to carry out local wishes!

Locals want a public pool? The council should be allowed to do that. A development is against peoples wishes? The council should have real power to block it!

The point I beleive @hicksy2 and I were making is: Councils, as-is, can't simply go out and become a bus operator, largely no matter how much they or local people wish it.

Laws would in fact need to be changed, not to mention councils returned to a semblance of financial viability.

This isn't any kind of ‘oh it can't be done’ or ‘think of the markets’, it's a statement of realities to be overcome.

Show thread\u2014Oct 17

@mike @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

To speak in terms of "alignment of incentives" is to accept the Capitalist framing which has led us to our present hellscape where the only thing that matters is that The Money is comfortable

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 17
@pikesley @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Well, not really. But if you think you can do this WITHOUT aligning incentives, I'll be happy to hear how you plan to coerce people to do things they don't want to do.
Show threadhicksy2Oct 17
@mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin what does 'aligning incentives' mean? Sounds very mealy-mouthed. I don't like that idea.
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 17
@hicksy2 @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin I think it's a pretty clear concept. It means arriving at a situation where we all (the council, the bus users) want the same thing. For example, if the council could be shown that reducing or eliminating bus fares would result in more local rather than online shopping, befitting the area financially.
Show thread\u2014Oct 17

@mike @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

WHAT DO WE WANT?

Centrist tinkering

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

We have to work within the constraints of the existing, obviously-rigged systems

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 17

@pikesley @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

You say you want a revolution?
Well, you know.
We'd all love to see the plan.

Show threadStuart Oct 14
@mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin London managed to mostly go against this trend by not having deregulation forced upon it by central Government unlike most of the rest of E&W e.g. https://constituencies.open-innovations.org/themes/transport/bus-service-changes/
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 14

@slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Interesting! Also, shameful that the rest of the country PUT TOGETHER apparently makes less than half the bus journeys made in London.

(I wonder what that one blue dot west of London means?)

Show threadStuart Oct 14
@mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Didcot.
Show threadStuart Oct 14

@mike In the past few years I should note that London gets to have a £1.75 single fare cap whilst the rest of the country was raised (from £2) to £3 by the Chancellor https://www.gov.uk/guidance/3-national-bus-fare-cap (although a few areas have tried to keep it at £2.50).

I'm also reminded of this post by Caroline Lucas https://mastodon.me.uk/deck/@CarolineL[email protected]/113435208228696027 pointing out how the Chancellor extended the 5p fuel duty cut to protect drivers whilst making buses (outside London) more expensive by lifting the fare cap.

£3 national bus fare cap

A list of bus companies and bus routes included in the £3 bus fare cap scheme.

GOV.UK
Show threadStuart Oct 14

@mike I will force myself to hope that the 2025 Bus Services Bill might help outside of London.

This old 2016 report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80769a40f0b62302693a81/the-bus-services-bill-an-overview.pdf downplays mention of how London was privileged for decades and picks a year range for outside-of-London to avoid it looking as bad as it has been.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 14
@slowe That is a very unwholesome combination.
Show threadMortenOct 17
@slowe @mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin All the PhD students and post docs going to work
Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@slowe @mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Reading presents another exception, walk around the town centre and there are colourful town-owned buses everywhere, people using them too.

I'm sure the locals have their complaints, but it's about the one ‘deregulated’ place where buses still ‘work’ — specifically because the council worked against the ‘spirit’ of deregulation 🫣

(and whilst London retained powers over bus services, the buses were still, and are, privatised, unlike Reading)

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 19

@purple @slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin That's brilliant!

Are they free in Reading, or just cheap?

Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@mike @slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin I think the description would be ‘cheap-er’.

Certainly not free, but still, less than most places I think.

Really the key though is that the service is actually usable, naturally cheaper would be better, and then even more people would use it, but it goes to show people will pay when the service is frequent and varied enough to reliably get people where they need to be.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 19
@purple @slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes, it's a tricky balance to pull off: frequent vs. cheap.
Show threadpurple: licenced to sticky plasterOct 19

@mike @slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin ah but see that's half the fun, frequent can lead to cheaper!

You both start to unlock economies of scale, reducing the running cost of the fleet itself, and increase overall utilisation, which reduces those costs per passenger.

More people paying fares means increase income as well, even with lowered fares.

15,000 trips at £1.50 produces more revenue than 10,000 at £2.10.

This is without even considering, shock horror, the idea of using public funds to support a public service.

Really the problem is having the initial rush of capital to get things started, private entities really have no incentive to do so and public ones, for one reason or another, largely can't.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Oct 20

@purple @slowe @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes indeed. Once the ball starts rolling, virtuous circles are available. But in any given moment, when a council gets a 20% funding boost for public transport, say, it can EITHER run services 20% more often OR reduce fares by 20%. It can't do both.

One important question would be: which of these measures would most quickly lead to further revenue increase?