Mastodawn

Anon Opin Oct 13

Growing up, the main bus in my town was every 10 minutes and always packed. I didn't worry about timetables I just left the house and knew it would be there. Now it's every half hour and completely deserted. This is no coincidence. Fund buses properly and people will use them.

Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon Oct 13

have them reliable and plentiful and people use them.

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 13

@Thebratdragon @anon_opin But also: as usage falls off, running routes becomes unprofitable, so companies run the buses less frequently. It's a vicious circle.

@mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin have you considered that not everything should be required to run at a profit?

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 13

@pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes, I have considered it and agreed the heck out of it.

The real question is whether the companies running these routes have considered it. I doubt it.

@mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin ok, I'll go you one further: have you considered that none of this should be in private hands?

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 13

@pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Yes, I have considered that and agree the heck out out it. But I don't see how to fix it.

Jon Wood Oct 14

@mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin the right people just have to want it. After that it’s quite simple, the council buys some busses and starts running routes. For extra value the council says to the current operators they’re going to do so, and asks if those operators fancy selling their busses and cutting their losses before their routes are abandoned because they cost 10x as much and run worse.

@jon @pikesley @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin buys some busses, buys a depot, employs mechanics to maintain them, employs admin staff to do the DVSA paperwork as a bus operator, pays the insurance, competes with the big cos who gets interested all of a sudden. Buying buses and setting up the stuff to run them isn't a 'quite simple' Friday afternoon jolly. Sorry I forgot about employing anyone to drive them/train drivers. Deals with Reformheads objecting to the depot, forgot that.

@hicksy2 @jon @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

BETTER THINGS AREN'T POSSIBLE well done you

@pikesley @jon @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin I didn't say impossible, I was just being realistic.

Mike Taylor 🦕

@hicksy2 @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Exactly. For councils to do this (which I would welcome), incentives need to be aligned. And I have no idea how to make that happen.

Jon Wood Oct 17

@mike @hicksy2 @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

@mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin they also need £10-50Mn from somewhere....

purple: licenced to sticky plaster Oct 19

@hicksy2 @mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin and the right to spend that on providing a public service

(whilst one might be inclined to expect that local councils, bodies elected to provide local services, are allowed to provide services, the reality is …thatcher'd)

Jon Wood Oct 19

@purple @hicksy2 @mike @pikesley @Thebratdragon @anon_opin you all realise parliament can pass laws right? If they really wanted to they could just pass one that says all the bus companies belong to councils now, but everyone is so absorbed in the idea that we can’t upset businesses or The Market we refuse to do anything good.

@jon @mike @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2

we have to keep The Money happy at all costs, Jon

Thatcher casts a very long shadow

@jon @pikesley @mike @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin why is everyone so bothered about how to do it, who wants it, etc.? Spouting a bunch of meaningless political jargon. What do I want? Re-instate £2 bus cap. Restore my local service to 2015 levels (6 an hour). Free travel for under 16s with adults. Redeploy some politicians in revenue earning service to pay for it. If it doesn't pay for itself. Our local mayor is going on about taking control of buses yada yada yada. Just improve them!!!!

Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon Oct 19

@jon @pikesley @mike @purple @anon_opin @hicksy2

all you need to do is remove all the obstacles to councils running there own buses, that were deliberately put in place to make them uneconomic to tender for them when privatisation was first done, see also NHS services, housing etc etc etc.

purple: licenced to sticky plaster Oct 19

@Thebratdragon @jon @pikesley @mike @anon_opin @hicksy2 ^ this exactly.

Over the last 40 odd years local authorities have been intentionally, somewhat explicitly, repeatedly undermined to the point they largely can't do ‘anything’.

Even things you wouldn't think of as privatised, like education, have largely been put out of reach of education authorities. Yes really.

(and we wonder why local elections get such little turn out)

But it very much doesn't have to be this way, we can, should, must, return power to our local bodies, and then we might start to get somewhere.

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 19

@jon @pikesley @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 Isn't there a word for governments that just take stuff from people?

It's all fun and games while they're taking things we like from people we don't like and giving them others who we trust.

How confident are we that it would stop there?

@mike @jon @purple @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 governments that take things that obviously, transparently ought to be in public hands and place them in public hands?

purple: licenced to sticky plaster Oct 19

@jon @pikesley @mike @Thebratdragon @anon_opin @hicksy2 Parliament certainly can pass laws, indeed there is a Bus Services Bill in progress at the moment which seems broadly positive, we also have a centuries long history of compulsory purchase and nationalisation, forgotten in more recent times, and I for one would welcome renewed use of such measures — I'd also really like our democratically elected local bodies to be allowed to carry out local wishes!

Locals want a public pool? The council should be allowed to do that. A development is against peoples wishes? The council should have real power to block it!

The point I beleive @hicksy2 and I were making is: Councils, as-is, can't simply go out and become a bus operator, largely no matter how much they or local people wish it.

Laws would in fact need to be changed, not to mention councils returned to a semblance of financial viability.

This isn't any kind of ‘oh it can't be done’ or ‘think of the markets’, it's a statement of realities to be overcome.

@mike @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

To speak in terms of "alignment of incentives" is to accept the Capitalist framing which has led us to our present hellscape where the only thing that matters is that The Money is comfortable

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 17

@pikesley @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin Well, not really. But if you think you can do this WITHOUT aligning incentives, I'll be happy to hear how you plan to coerce people to do things they don't want to do.

@mike @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin what does 'aligning incentives' mean? Sounds very mealy-mouthed. I don't like that idea.

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 17

@hicksy2 @pikesley @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin I think it's a pretty clear concept. It means arriving at a situation where we all (the council, the bus users) want the same thing. For example, if the council could be shown that reducing or eliminating bus fares would result in more local rather than online shopping, befitting the area financially.

@mike @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

WHAT DO WE WANT?

Centrist tinkering

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

We have to work within the constraints of the existing, obviously-rigged systems

Mike Taylor 🦕Oct 17

@pikesley @hicksy2 @jon @Thebratdragon @anon_opin

You say you want a revolution?
Well, you know.
We'd all love to see the plan.