BlueskyUnfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users.
While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
Eugen Rochko@bsky.app And this is why real decentralization matters. There is nobody that can decide for the fediverse to block Mississippi.
Mike MasnickI feel like this is potentially misleading, Eugen? Both because others can host their own views of the network, but also will the largest instances, which you run, be willing to pay the $10k/user fines in Mississippi?
Because the state can still go after instances, no?
Nemes ContentIt's really not meant to be a gotcha kinda thing. I'm just trying to understand the actual complaint.
Fair point, and I believe you but I've see how conversations between fedi and bluesky usually goes.
Many people still think atproto is centralized and corporate controlled on the fedi side.
I am curious how eugene will respond since fedi runs tge whole instance as a site that talks to other sites.
My larger point is simply that this is a bad law that impacts both Mastodon and Bluesky (and the wider Fediverse/Atmosphere) and it seems like a reason to work together to fix the law (i.e., with @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy) than to use it to take potshots at each other. The law is bad.
Folker@[email protected] @Gargron Fixing the law and arguing for a truly decentralized social network should not be an either/or proposition.
Yeah, but come on. This is nitpicking different approaches to centralization as a total distraction from the simple fact the law is bad for both approaches.
@[email protected] @Gargron
Well, I don't see it as nitpicking...
Nobody was questioning the architecture of #twitter either as long as everybody was happy with their governance... We should do better this time.
Well, I don't see it as nitpicking...
Nobody was questioning the architecture of #twitter either as long as everybody was happy with their governance... We should do better this time.
It is nitpicking PRECISELY because this law DOES NOT CHANGE ITS ANALYSIS based on the architecture of a website. It implies you dunking on Bluesky for ideological reasons, which makes no sense because THE LAW IS JUST AS BAD FOR MASTODON.
Stop it.
Yes, but my point is that the consequences for the users are much worse for #bluesky users because of lack of decentralization https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115080383013572736
A bad law does not eliminate the difference between effectively centralized and decentralized social networks.
Aaron Mills 🏳️⚧️If your instance blocks you from accessing on Mastodon due to a law you need to use a VPN. The instance is aware of your IP.
If Bluesky blocks you from accessing due to a law, it can trivially be bypassed by using a different app or your browser lying to the code. You're not blocked from ATProto.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @[email protected] @Gargron
Theoretically yes, but in practice basically all #atproto users depend on #bluesky and are affected by the block without having the technical expertise or willingness to circumvent it. On the other hand #fediverse users are distributed over many #mastodon instances making their own decisions.
#activitypub and #atproto both support decentralization, but in practice #mastodon is decentralized, #bluesky is centralized.
Theoretically yes, but in practice basically all #atproto users depend on #bluesky and are affected by the block without having the technical expertise or willingness to circumvent it. On the other hand #fediverse users are distributed over many #mastodon instances making their own decisions.
#activitypub and #atproto both support decentralization, but in practice #mastodon is decentralized, #bluesky is centralized.
S.R. Weaver@folkerschamel @cloudhunter.co.uk @mmasnick.bsky.social @Gargron
Good luck fining an instance owner either hosting their instance outside the US ( foreign countries have no obligation enforcing US laws ) and home hosters that disable registrations.
Also on Mastodon you dont have to belong to the same instance to connect. Its more like email in that way.
A third of MAU users are on US based servers, though.
Thankfully, more infrastructure outside of Bluesky - and the USA - is being set up by third parties :)
@cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
That's really nice.
But at the end the only thing which matters - to avoid situations with the @mississippifreepress.org - is how many users(!) are not at the mercy of #bluesky's decisions.
If this number is not far above 50% then it won't be decentralized in practice.
And btw, why not integrating #bluesky with the #fediverse? #bluesky could support #activitypub in addition to #atproto.
MathiasTCK@folkerschamel @cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
I mean, this very conversation happened over bsky.brid.gy right?
@mathiastck @cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
Yes, this is encouraging, as I mentioned previously.
But unfortunately it is not as frictionless as it should be. For example, here on #mastodon I can find and follow only a small fraction of people on #bluesky who have enabled the bridge.
The reason it is like that is because a lot of people on Mastodon went up on an uproar when the bridge was originally opt-out rather than opt-in.
snarfed.org/2024-02-12_5...
github.com/snarfed/brid...
The reaction from most Bluesky uses was "huh, cool".
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
The bridge also seems to be not working reliable. For example, my post you were responding to was bridged to Bluesky, but at least at the moment my post before that https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115116088397042855 seems to be missing on Bluesky.
Wonder if Cory isn't bridged so that's why the reply didn't go across?
But your post is incorrect you linked to. An alt client would absolutely evade the block. Hell, even ublock scripts evade the block. It's enforced fully client-side.
gist.github.com/mary-ext/6e2...
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
When still using the #bluesky app view, then an alt client won't help. But aynway, my main point is that such claims are #decentralizationwashing in my view: Such technical debates are completely disconnected from the real world, because basically nobody is using such tools anyway, and in practice #bluesky centrally blocked Mississippi - as they are saying themselves in the original post.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
Interestingly the post https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115116427483310173 was bridged, but not the original reply https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115113652757352708. Funny.
Yes, as the reply was to someone who was not bridged.
Not sure of a nice way of handling that - if replies are sent across even if they're to someone not bridged it would look weird and be missing context.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
In my view a bridge should just bridge everyting.
Simple.
I don't agree with the arguments for opt-in, because on both sides #mastodon and #bluesky you are joining a platform explicitely advertising with decentralization and sending your public posts to other servers.
For private communication don't use a social network, but #Signal.
Well yeah, that's how I think it should be too. But the Mastodon community was loud and clear that they didn't want it that way. If it had been done that way, against Mastodon's wishes, I guarantee that the bridge would have been fediblocked by most admins meaning it wouldn't work well anyway.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
It's their right to block it. And so what? The bridge would work very well, far most users would be bridged. Especially in contrast to now, where it works only for a tiny fraction of users.
It's not about the tiny fraction of people who are explicitly for or against it, but the large majority who is not aware of the issue but wouldn't be against bridging.