@ewen Fines based on a percentage of global turnover?

Global is important, as we see a lot of service based companies charge through foreign entities to reduce tax.

Turnover is important (vs profit), because can't have companies make a loss in the year that the fine hits - especially if they get fined in multiple countries in the same year.

I also like jailing CEOs and boards, because that scares the bejesus out of them - more so than losing money.

We don't even need new law to make this happen @ewen.

Every corporation exists only as a legal fiction, chartered by the state.

The state can unilaterally end that charter, dissolving the corporation. So, that option is always available as a remedy, without passing any new law.

There is also nothing stopping the state from bringing criminal liability suit directly against executive staff at corporations, if for example they have harmed society or the environment.

Do that a few times and watch the rest come into line, right quick.

@ewen

That is now part of my political platform.
And if they break labour laws, those shares are to be held by the Union club at that workplace. Plus the fines, of course.
i.e. wage theft? pay double and the union club(s) is now 5% owner of that company as a proxy for worker ownership.

@ewen Nice thought, somewhat challenged by the global nature of corps and their access to lawyers in sufficient quantity to delay outcomes effectively forever (or at least until their exit strategy matures for that market).

IMO, removing incorporation in it's entirety, no legal status for a business, no limited liability for directors / owners, might encourage folks to think twice before engaging in malpractice..

@ewen This assumes that the government will do a better job of running the company. The government....

In my opinion the only thing that will work is if the biggest shareholder (actual person) gets a custodial sentence.

@ewen Actual jail for both decision makers and those implementing the harm. Nothing else will make an impression unfortunately.

But jails shouldn’t be what they are now. I’m not looking for Club Fed everywhere, just the basic decency to treat people like human beings instead of livestock.

@ewen @msbellows I've thought a lot about this, too. Few realize this, but corporations can only operate through licenses from their state government. SO MUCH CHANGE could be leveraged via conditions on this license.

For instance, we could make intellectual property owned by the corp contingent upon following certain prosocial rules. Otherwise it's public domain.

Oh you killed people through neglect? Guess we're not going to renew you this year.

Hell, we could even levy taxes this way.

@ewen interesting ideas here. I agree limited liability is a key legal status that allows groups of owners to create an unaccountability machine (see Dan Davies book of the same name.)

I suggest we then need to have a way to deal with the situation when law enforcement and government are also corrupt and are infact collaborators with criminal business owners.
Because I believe this is how such crimes continue to be perpetrated.

This takes us into the territory of resistance action I think.

@ewen Like this?

> If you infringe the EU's competition rules, you could end up being fined as much as 10% of your annual worldwide turnover

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm

@ewen

Or if the actual people involved were held responsible as well as the “company”.

@ewen

Administratively dissolve the business. Every state secretary can do that. The local govt just needs to set strict rules for business licenses in the state - including but not limited to sending a bill each month to every for-profit companyto pay back the city, county, and state for every dime of public assistance received by their employees (without naming them, of course).

@ewen Capital punishment for a corporation - In any case of betraying the public whether by fraud, pollution, etc.

We dissolve their charter. We liquidate their assets. We pay back customers and non-executive employees first. If there's anything left, we pay other creditors. Then non-executive shareholders and only then executives.

Zero tolerance. A CEO can get blackballed if it happened on their watch.

@ewen My idea comes from working in bars for years in my "youth" (20s).
When a bar violated the rules, such as serving a minor, or serving someone who obviously was dangerously drunk, that bar was closed for a specific time.

I thought when Facebook screwed up, rather than a fine, a day's closure or more would send a message to them and to people who are on that network.

@ewen imho its not an ownership but a power problem.

ABN was nationalized and then denationalized, in my country (NL). The power remained in the wrong hands throughout. Small shareholders and workers were screwed over while the powerful profited unfairly.

We could in theory make laws to limit the size of companies, hence breaking up the power structures.

But any state enforcing laws on the powerful will just see them leave. We need global change for this.