Mastodawn

@cstross we voted unicorns because it feels like the body design of utahraptors makes more sense for group hunting

@ireneista @cstross gotta admit I'm thinking "what if the unicorn misses?" there, though - neither's looking great, but the utahraptor actually benefits from staying side-to-side

@ireneista @cstross ...the unicorn's going to be plain bigger, mind

@ireneista @cstross I reckon it comes down to whether the raptor can place its forearms/wings in a way that stops the unicorn picking up speed to get away and come back for another pass: if it can in principle, you've got a messy opening stage but things get determined pretty quickly once the unicorn's caught.

If not, how fast can the utahraptor step to the side and turn inwards?...

@flippac @cstross you also have to remember, utahraptors are built for speed, for sure, but the unicorn's eyes and visual cortex reflect over a hundred million years of evolutionary improvement that the utahraptor doesn't benefit from. seriously, dino eyes have a ton of problems. if it turns into an extended battle, that could prove critical.

@ireneista @cstross If it turns into an extended jousting contest, absolutely - I'm not sure grappling necessarily got better rather than more specialised though, and if the contest is "spike the raptor enough" vs "grab hind leg" then it doesn't help the unicorn that the offensive and defensive motions are mostly the same thing: scratching up the raptor's flank isn't so easy if the raptor's already hauling it for a grab

Charlie Stross May 19

@flippac @ireneista Okay, so let me mix it up a bit:

The unicorn is harnessed to a light two-wheeled carriage (like a curricle or a gig), made with modern materials. Two humans on board, one driver, one passenger. (They may be armed.)

The raptor is trained for riding and is saddled up: it may be gagged (but beware those raptorial claws!). One rider, also armed.

Weapons are most likely black-powder pistols.

Anyway: both animals are constrained! And black powder weapons won't help much.

@cstross @ireneista How far out do the humans see each other, how much do they trust their steeds' training and how daft are they?

@flippac @cstross all interesting fights start with human folly, so let's assume the humans don't think to take aim until the animals are charging

@ireneista @cstross do the animals actually have cause to charge until the humans open fire?

Charlie Stross May 19

@flippac @ireneista Yes: it's a chase, humans in unicorn-carriage are fleeing, rider on raptor is trying to arrest (not kill) them.

@cstross @ireneista Assuming the unicorn has the bad attitude, it fake-bolts, the carriage gets the shit knocked out of it briefly then the real fight begins with the unicorn far enough to give it an advantage as it turns around?

@cstross @ireneista (actual chase-into-fight is boring at best and while the unicorn's tied to that carriage it's either capable of outrunning the raptor or not: if not, it's raptor food because the raptor is in control of the approach whatever happens to the rider - we might get "raptor wins, unicorn's people win against rider, raptor decides unicorn is enough dinner" for example)

@flippac @cstross you're right, the raptor would try to pass and run alongside - jumping over the carriage is too finicky a move and there's no way to line it up properly. so it'd go for the flank. with its feet, per the other discussion. this probably gives it the first strike, so it probably wins.

@ireneista @cstross I think we see a ramming motion aimed at the hips first, kicking while running in a different direction is not easy and rolling under a horse/unicorn in motion still risks getting stamped on

@ireneista @cstross possible variant: the raptor lowers its center of mass for a second and slams into the side of a leg instead with significant force hitting the knee

@ireneista @cstross extremely bad idea: raptor tries to kick a moving horse in the leg from in front of said leg

(work the mechanics through: either it's skipping a step in its running cadence or it doesn't get much horizontal force of its own out, meanwhile the collision is likely to make it spin)

@flippac @cstross right... so like the legs are gonna be the most dangerous part of the unicorn while it's still pulling the cart - it'd be very easy to get tangled in them, which could be a mutual death. so ramming the leg is a risky move on the raptor's part, but on the plus side if it works the raptor wins immediately.

@flippac @cstross we can assume that, though raptors are intelligent, they do not have an established culture which teaches them mechanical principles, so they'll be going off instinct and past fights for this. it feels unlikely that they'd understand how important the legs are to the unicorn and decide to take that risk, but it's possible.

@ireneista @cstross that's a more deeply evolutionary thing than you might expect: it boils down to "does the raptor recognise a gracile four-legged animal built for speed when it sees one?"

Charlie Stross May 19

@flippac @ireneista AIUI most quadrupeds that overlapped with raptors in our time line went for slow/armoured rather than gracile and speedy. But these are future species modified from horses and (probably) cassowaries or similar.