Mastodawn

David Windham Apr 27, 2025

Humans independently edit Wikipedia for humans. They don’t have any Ads or cannot be bullied into removing content. Wikipedia is free from AI slop. No wonder tech bros with AI companies want to eliminate it so that their fake AI text generator can show or push propaganda. Please do not let Wikipedia die. It is an independent source and far more reliable than Gen AI companies. It is a real shame that it comes to this.

conscientious objector🇨🇭🪂Apr 26, 2025

I don’t think it’s always independent.
And sometimes it’s a pain in the ass.

But it’s far better than anything else what we have! And it’s mostly a reliable source of information!

Which I cannot say about US media or tech oligarchs bullshit.

So yeah - save Wikipedia!

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 26, 2025

Wikipedia is proof of anarchy.

Kyle Memoir 🍉🐧Apr 27, 2025

@unruly @nixCraft

So still trying to understand anarchy.

Is this it?

'...written and maintained by a community of volunteers, known as Wikipedians, through open collaboration and the wiki software MediaWiki. Founded by Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger on January 15, 2001, Wikipedia has been hosted since 2003 by the Wikimedia Foundation, an American nonprofit organization funded mainly by donations from readers.' - wiki (on wiki)

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 27, 2025

@f800gecko @nixCraft

Yes.

I'm no expert though. I think it has to do with simple facts of consent, as by volunteers, and decentralized unfederated control, just like Mastodon too.

Kyle Memoir 🍉🐧Apr 27, 2025

@unruly @nixCraft

I find the benefactors part perplexing.

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 27, 2025

@f800gecko @nixCraft

In what way?

Kyle Memoir 🍉🐧Apr 27, 2025

@unruly @nixCraft

Well, I can't help thinking of the take of house cats as anarchists: fully independent and self-governing while oblivious to the larger structure and benefactors they depend upon for food, lodging, etc.

Sans structure, they return to a feral state in the wild, where instinct and biological imperative prevail and set boundaries.

The question is then: what initial conditions produce such a rich, organized environment and how does it remain stable over time under anarchy?

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 27, 2025

@f800gecko @nixCraft

Good insights and questions. Thanks. I must say I am not someone who claims to be an anarchist nor am I any sort of expert on it. So, I appreciate learning together about all things.

I think that cats, humans, and all creatures of the animal kingdom evolved in ways unique to their species, no less so to their social behaviour and organizatiion. Human culture, foresight, hindsight, passing on and growing knowledge is unique and naturally selected for.

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 27, 2025

@f800gecko @nixCraft

While a hegemonic culture is relatively stable, it can be subject to disruption, such as when it is material based and unsustainable, for example, unbridled capitalism. Some sort of extremist anarchism is likely idealistic in my opinion, as it would be easily disrupted. So the only sort of anarchism that would be more firmly entrenched would have to be a compromise between the extreme of completely centrally controlled society and uncontrolled.

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Apr 27, 2025

@f800gecko @nixCraft

Perhaps a democratic decentralized model is the closest realistic sustainable form.

Kyle Memoir 🍉🐧Apr 27, 2025

@unruly @nixCraft

This reply reminds me why I like mastodon and why I've stuck with it despite the many frustrations and oddities to be dealt with.

It’s nice to feel flattered (many of us here struggle to accept praise in r/l), but beyond that and above all, it’s refreshing simply to be able to have sane conversations somewhere :-)

So, thank you for making my day.

Nazani Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft Start downloading all we can now.

iwein Apr 27, 2025

@Nazani
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download

These dumps are already all over the globe, but each of us should check that they can get access to them *without the internet*.

Do you have a friend with a NAS that holds a dump? Do you know as a group how to read it?

If they succeed (they won't), they will go for censored only internet next (meaning the Gestapo will know what you read). This is almost impossible to achieve, and I could be completely wrong...

But doing this is good anyway.

Wikipedia:Database download - Wikipedia

Ethan Black Apr 28, 2025

@Nazani @nixCraft Not just "start downloading all we can now", you can pretty easily grab a 20-21GB backup of the full text of #Wikipedia right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
I have a few copies.

Wikipedia:Database download - Wikipedia

Magical Cat Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft Does it mean I should download copy of wikipedia in languages I interested in, e. g. English, Ukrainian, Georgian, some other language(s) for sake of preserving it?

I also suspect that wikimedia foundation should register a European fallback entity and move to EU before their employees got arrested.

Kevin Caccamo Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft Another unfortunate thing is that a lot of schools and libraries have big posters warning you that Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source of information, because "anyone can edit it, and therefore it may contain inaccurate and unreliable information". But, at least Wikipedia is more trustworthy than these AI tools that these companies keep pushing, if only for the fact that it doesn't have an AI tool of its own.

Dan Jones Apr 26, 2025

It's especially ironic.

You know how many editors are working on high traffic Wikipedia articles? Dozens of people working, out of the goodness of their heart, to keep the quality good and information accurate.

And how many editors are working on the same article for Encarta (or whoever is the biggest encyclopedia maker now)? A few. Certainly not dozens.

@Talon1024 @nixCraft

Elisabeth M Apr 26, 2025

@danjones000
Right, this "anyone can edit therefore it's suspect" business has never heard of open source software
@Talon1024 @nixCraft

Alex Keane Apr 27, 2025

@danjones000 @Talon1024 @nixCraft Actually, in the classes where I got told that Wikipedia wasn't a source, Encarta, World Book, etc. were also not "sources".

Encyclopedias were just starting points to get a basic ideas of where to go with actual sources. (And then Wikipedia's source citing obsession was pointed to as a good example for what actually goes in your bibliography)

Juho Mäntysalo Apr 27, 2025

@danjones000 @Talon1024 @nixCraft

The "problem" with wikiarticles is that the less popular they are, the more likely it is that the article hasn't gone through reiteration. Meaning it doesn't have sources, the sources are poor, or the sources give a unbalanced view of the topic due to the editor having a narrower focus than the article title.

Always remember Scottish Wikipedia!

I say this while confessing to loving Wikipedia, and relying on it heavily.

½

Juho Mäntysalo Apr 27, 2025

@danjones000 @Talon1024 @nixCraft

2/2

I was surprised that some still teach "the wiki can be vandalized" as their chosen argument, but on retrospect shouldn't be surprised that people who subscribe to hierarchial/vertical worldview would dislike a anarchist/horizontal operation structure.

It's a disservice to the students though, as teachers should be teaching source critique as a technique, not brands you can trust without question.

(I've found bias in Oxford Reference Dictionaries, too.)

Elisabeth M Apr 26, 2025

@Talon1024
Both statements are true! Wikipedia is incredibly valuable and its decentralized editing processes are good at catching problems; also, its model has specific weaknesses, no repository contains absolute truth, and its facts should be taken with salt!
@nixCraft

ChookMother 🇦🇺🦘Apr 27, 2025

@Talon1024 @nixCraft But this "untrustworthy source of information" usually lists sources ( or alerts users where sources are missing), which are vetted by other contributors. Anyone who doesn't want to quote Wikipedia can look up the sources.

Jeroen Bosman Apr 27, 2025

@Talon1024 @nixCraft do you know of any photos of that?

JamesTDG Apr 27, 2025

@Talon1024 @nixCraft to be honest, my college profs all agree those posters are a load of bullshit. The rule should be to take some of the information with a grain of salt, and read further into linked sources when possible.

The fact that people hold each other in check helps make it more secure of a source in my eyes compared to something like the Washington Post.

bobocubed Apr 26, 2025

I donate monthly. Perhaps it's time to increase the amount...

Anne Delong Apr 26, 2025

@boelder @nixCraft

Wikipedia is not a citable source - and Wikipedians all agree about this. Like other encyclopedias, it's a summarizer of other reliable sources. Experienced editors work hard to sort through published material, choose facts for the encyclopedia that can be substantiated rather than opinion and fake news. Sometimes it's tricky. Then they list the references they found - and these can be cited.

Luca Salgarelli Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft donate guys, donate to the Wikimedia foundation. Even 1 or 2 € or $ a month will make a difference.

Kyle Memoir 🍉🐧Apr 27, 2025

@lucasalgarelli @nixCraft

Now, then every year at Christmas as your gift to your family is not a bad approach. Assuming a number of them use it as you do.

Madalin Ignisca 🇪🇺🇪🇦Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft wikipedia foundation should move away from US. Many countries will be able to protect it.

Juan Games Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft wait, they want to kill wikipedia?

Mark Wyner Won’t Comply

@nixCraft I’ve been an editor and monetary supporter for many years. I even want to amp that up.

The Turtle Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft is there a plan to deconstruct Wikipedia if needed? Distribute and federate chunks of it all over the net with caretakers who provide very little other than a place to host part of it till the Stupid Administration goes to jail?

Arnaud Launay Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft I stopped trying to edit it. Much of my edits were erased for out of space reasons, or page were deleted for whatever other reasons. This is not an encyclopedia. This is a dictionary, badly managed by wanabees in a positon of power - and abusing it. Fuck them.

a fading echo Apr 27, 2025

They were not.
"Wikipedia is NOTPAPER" so space is meaningless.

Please point to an example of one of your edits.

Arnaud Launay Apr 27, 2025

@midgephoto @nixCraft "out of space" as in "complete madness". Not as in "we dont have enough bytes".

Arnaud Launay Apr 27, 2025

@midgephoto @nixCraft Back on a real keyboard :) For more infos, years ago I added a one-line summary to a TV series episode which i CC from the official web site of the serie. Apparently, it was not allowed.

If it would happen now (which it wont, because I don't edit anymore, no time to loose for this result), I think I'd ask if I should ask chatgpt to rephrase the one line sentence. It was that stupid.

More recently, @tth added a page for a fictional person (tv, book, I don't remember), which is very well known. The page got deleted.

Add to that the "we need more external sources" clusterfluck, with "uhoh no, we don't like internet pages as sources", like "ah no, the info you took from the *official* page of XXX is not good enough".

Hence, you have more and more people like me who go read-only on WP.

And the deletion of pages because whatever indicates it's *not* an encyclopedia. An En should cover anything and everything...

tTh Apr 27, 2025

@asl : Sorry, but it's not me who added the mentioned page, my last reject in wikipedia was a minor change who was rejected because it was "not pertinent" ;{

https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Connor&diff=prev&oldid=224667296

@midgephoto @nixCraft

« John Connor » : différence entre les versions — Wikipédia

a fading echo Apr 27, 2025

@tth @asl @nixCraft

Picky of someone.
That page is quite inward-looking, but on the English WP the expectation seems to be that anything that seems to deserve a link can have one.

You could mutter about it on the Talk page, I suppose, or say to the editor that you still disagree.

Or leave it for now.

a fading echo Apr 27, 2025

@asl @nixCraft @tth

That's a glaring copyright fault.

An encyclopedia - take Britannica as an example - shouldn't cover _everything_ nor _anything_.

NOTABLE and ENCYCLOPEDIC are the keys.

I agree there are people who get tedious about sources, although I'd prefer a printed page or indexed journal to a website in most cases.

Now I had a page deleted and a lot of annoyance following on the topic of antivaccinationists, on the grounds, by a bunch of them that there was no such thing.

a fading echo Apr 27, 2025

@asl @nixCraft @tth

That seemed worth going on with, and some of the row found its way via requests for comment to arbitrators, and resulted in the removal and suppression of some bad faith editors.

whale.to was one of them - his is a website to not use as a source!

There are mechanisms, and they work, slowly and mostly carefully. For things that are important they are effective.

Arnaud Launay Apr 27, 2025

@midgephoto @nixCraft @tth britannica is space limited. Wikipedia is not really (nit by text anyway).

And for the copyright... it was like "sun: big yellow sphere" as copied from the website.

Here it was: mostly stopped editing after that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tanked&diff=prev&oldid=844080461

Not editing does seem like the common rule nowadays around me.

Tanked: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

a fading echo Apr 27, 2025

@asl @nixCraft @tth

There's quite a lot of work done in teams and projects.
They tend to reject disruptive reversions etc quite effectively.

But arseholes and grifters will always be around, and milk-monitors with trivial preoccupations.

Nonya Bidniss Apr 26, 2025

@nixCraft I donate every time they ask. It's a priceless resource.

Robert Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft Agree 👍

Lynn McAlister UE

@nixCraft Not entirely true. Women and trans people have been bullied and 'mansplained' since the Wikipedia project started. Men writing about something always know better - even if a trans person has three PhDs in the subject. Which is not at all to say that Wikipedia isn't worth protecting - it totally is. But once we've protected it, we need to make knowledge rather than privilege the ultimate qualification.

Colin B.🇨🇦Apr 27, 2025

@lmgenealogy @nixCraft what you're looking for exists, and is called citizendium.

Lynn McAlister UE

@swordgeek @nixCraft I've heard of this but never checked it out. What makes it different?

Colin B.🇨🇦Apr 27, 2025

@lmgenealogy @nixCraft In a nutshell, think of it as "peer-reviewed wikipedia."

It is a wiki co-founded by Larry Sanger with a deep emphasis on reliability, accuracy, and significance. It's a collaborative encyclopedia, but far closer to the 'traditional' model, which has experts reviewing articles before allowing them for incorporation.

Sadly, it hasn't really caught on, and is currently almost invisible.

Lynn McAlister UE

@swordgeek @nixCraft Kind of like Mastodon - it is what BlueSky claims to be, but everyone goes to BlueSky instead. I will definitely check it out. Thanks!

sohrobinator Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft And don't forget to donate to the nonprofit that operates Wikipedia! Very few people do and it's one of the most used resources on the Web.

minor!Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft breaking news: llm makers eliminate prolly one of the best sources of base data for llms*

*not qualified to make this claim but seems likely

Julie Webgirl Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft
I agree with you in principal but I don't know if you've contributed to Wikipedia...I recently added "TLD (Top-Level Domain<which I linked to the wiki entry)" to an article about the company who is trying to own (dot) org and called it (just) a domain instead of a TLD, which it is... And somebody took it down by the next morning. 🙄 I don't know that I'd call it bullying but wiki is very cliquey with editors on power trips.

But yeah fuck "AI"

Iris Young (he/they/she) (PhD)Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft Agree, and hate to be that guy, but it feels relevant to point out one false detail here: people do get bullied into removing content from wikipedia. What comes to mind is pages for women who aren't "notable" enough. Pages will repeatedly be taken down by men who feel threatened by more important women.

Wikipedia and its community aren't perfect. But nothing and nobody is.

Olson Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft I agree. Everyday I use it. For that I financially support it, just a few bucks every month.

Reliable.Machine Apr 27, 2025

I love Wikipedia. I got to learn about the Intel Management Engine because of Wikipedia!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

Anyone who sees this, please consider donating to Wikipedia, which is to knowledge what FOSS is for software 🥰

#backdoor #allegedly #hacking #cybersecurity

Intel Management Engine - Wikipedia

Isocat Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft Wikipedia is _not_ free of 'AI' slop. I wish it were.

EllenMarch2 Apr 27, 2025

@nixCraft donate! Even a little