Mastodawn

@roknrol hehe is the idea of putting important stuff into alt text rather than the image becoming popular

Me likey I think :3 (I am sighted)

Roknrol 4d ago

@ity I am too, but I've kind of taken on the crusade for AltText

@roknrol

Just yesterday I posted about wanting a screen-reader focused markup language to use for alt text, so I can eg. mark links or code or other stuff that I heard screen readers struggle with

Roknrol 4d ago

@ity That would be awesome!

@roknrol Yea

I will try to work on something like that, make a spec, and try to cooperate with fedi software and with screen reader developers if possible

And also with blind folks, so I can know what all tends to be a problem

I will probably take quite a few iterations to get something decent, but yea...

I'm thinking of calling it SML, Screenreader Markup Language. It'll be based on HTML.

Roknrol 4d ago

@ity Tagging @Fragglemuppet

Boris Schapira (Pro)3d ago

@roknrol @ity @Fragglemuppet

Web archeologist here. We have a markup language in the web, HTML and at some point, was also had the possibility to create long and precise description for images with the `longsesc` attribute. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLImageElement/longDesc

Unfortunately, nobody was using it so it disappeared because the standards are paving the cow path more than dictating usage.

HTMLImageElement: longDesc property - Web APIs | MDN

The deprecated property longDesc on the HTMLImageElement interface specifies the URL of a text or HTML file which contains a long-form description of the image. This can be used to provide optional added details beyond the short description provided in the title attribute.

MDN Web Docs

Boris Schapira (Pro)3d ago

@roknrol @ity @Fragglemuppet the best equivalent nowadays would be https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/Reference/Attributes/aria-describedby

aria-describedby - ARIA | MDN

The global aria-describedby attribute identifies the element (or elements) that describes the element on which the attribute is set.

MDN Web Docs

CrazyDogLadysezBreatheWithMe 3d ago

@boostmarks @roknrol @ity @Fragglemuppet I *love* the expression “standards are paving the cow path”. 😂 Thank you!

Boris Schapira (Pro)3d ago

@heartofcoyote @roknrol @ity @Fragglemuppet I love that it's part of HTML design principles too https://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=HEAD#pave-the-cowpaths

HTML Design Principles

@roknrol @ity not all disabilities are blindness. You don’t need to be an arsehole to people with other disabilities to make your point. I found the post confusing and then angering.
This is what most ableism is; people don’t know what disabilities people have, and so unwittingly hurt them. It’s casual cruelty, but it’s done thinking they’re doing a moral good.

When you typed “crusade” did not pause to think?

@Kestenan @roknrol Which disability are you talking about ? /gen

@ity @roknrol cognitive impairments. I don’t usually like sharing with strangers, but it’s no secret. ADHD and Dyslexia for me.
Hiding information in alt-text is an impediment.

@Kestenan @roknrol I do not understand how putting information into alt text is a problem for Dyslexia. Would that not help, since you could render the text in any setting that is readable, as opposed to having to deal with all kinds of fonts and distorted meme text ? Please correct me since I don't really know how dyslexia is like.

As for ADHD, I suppose I sort of get it (considering me as well as 95% of anyone even remotely close to me has some form of ADHD), though I think that this is a UX problem of the fedi client rather than a problem with the idea itself.

I agree that we should have a tag that says important information not on image in alt text.

I appreciate alt text as a form of communicating context, and giving a description of the image that is easier for accessibility tools to process.

If you could explain in what way is it a problem, I'd be glad, because I would like to avoid causing problems with my usages of alt text in the future, but atm cannot really understand the issue

Maybe it's a unique mix caused by ADHD + Dyslexia, since I don't have as many dyslexic friends that I chatted about it with (I think I only have 5 or so) and don't have dyslexia myself.

(this whole post /gen tone marker btw)

Also, as an example, specifically for my form of ADHD, content warnings tend to be sometimes a problem. Sometimes they are even a problem when I scroll thru my own backlog of posts x3 But I use them everywhere I can, as I believe them to be extremely important.

So instead of stopping using them, I am working on making software adjustments to my instance for allowing configuration of autoexpanding CWs that do not include words that I would usually avoid. And trying to see if I can get that feature to as much fedi software as I can

(/gen for the whole post again btw >w<)

@roknrol @ity nononono, I’m not saying alt text is bad! Its not! It should absolutely be used by anyone who can do it, it’s just that the original post was a bit of a fucked up weaponisation of an accessibility aid.

⁂iwein⁂3d ago

@Kestenan
I feel like that regularly, so I'm asking with compassion.

Isn't "fucked up weaponization", and "arsehole" way too aggressive given op's positive intent?

Are jokes some of us can't understand never acceptable?

If I apply my peculiarities the same way, most poems, flirting and festivals would be discouraged, and I guess many neurotypical people would find that dystopian.

Happy to be helpful, but let's not be so angry about it. Could that work for you?

@ity

Kestenan's Typoist. BSc SSc 3d ago

@iwein @ity I understand your concern, it’s valid, of course, but I don’t get to pick how I feel about posts, rather my feelings pick how I react. If nothing else, I hope I was honest about how that post made me feel.
And the intent does not really matter. Very few people intend to be ableist, but the ableism still happens out of ignorance.
We all have our own levels of neurotypical bullshittery that we’ll put up with, and mine varies from day to day.

@roknrol @ity (and sorry for my ignorance, but what is the meaning of “/gen”?

It's a tone marker, saying that the post is intended to be read as genuine (aka no sarcasm or anything intended)

It's to help folks that have issues with inferring tone from messages, for me to have an easier time communicating the right tone, and to avoid misunderstandings in general because text is a medium in which conveying tone is difficult

@roknrol @ity thank you :)

@roknrol @ity as with all things ADHD, It varies from person to person, but I can give you my perspective.
Firstly, you’re absolutely right about UX of the client, I hadn’t even realised that myself! Thank you for the observation, I might try looking into different clients now :)
With dyslexia, often an irregular font can help, especially if they emphasise the shape of the word. Large font can help. ( it has been described that dyslexics don’t Read words by reading the letters, but by reading the shape of the words. Leaning more on their vocabulary than their alphabet.)
With adhd, just reading plane text can be more tedious than reading text in an engaging meme, so it makes it a harder task to complete.
But for me the biggest thing is context. Because of the above, I actually do very little reading, of signs, labels, packaging, I put up most of my information from the context, the things surrounding the text. Shape, colour, position, images. This isn’t great, and often leads to things like parking fines, ruining lunch became the hotdog tin said spicy, but it didn’t have any pictures of chillis on it… )I guess that’s why it’s considered a disability…)

Anyways, if you can keep text in it’s context, it makes it much easier for people who have my difficulties with reading!

Thank you for asking me about this. I was feeling angry before and you’ve really defused that! :)

I’ll try and help if you have any more questions!

Oh hmm I haven't considered that, thanks ! This sort of reminds me of my prosopagnosia, where instead of faces I have to use surrounding context to recognize folks, since faces to me all look the same x3 So I have to use stuff like hair color, clothing styles, body shape, accessories... And esp. voice, to recognize others.

For the plain text, by the way, I'm thinking of adding formatting support for alt text, of course in a way that works well with screen readers (the above-mentioned SML markup format that I am working on), but also with page renderers.

I agree though, we should keep the text in the meme :3 So that it exists in the right context. And duplicate it in the alt text. I'll try my best to keep the context stuff in mind.

@roknrol @ity it’s crazy how our brains find workarounds to keep us functional! I don’t think I have the face blindness thing, but my wife thinks I do, and she often has to correct me, especially when it comes to actors! :P

Yea haha

I mean, I would never be able to recognize actors, ever

I cannot even remember their *names* haha

miniBill (Leonardo)4d ago

@ity @Kestenan @roknrol this was an interesting read, thank you all for sharing 💜

Haijo 4d ago

@Kestenan@meow.social @roknrol@beige.party @ity@estradiol.city monospaced fonts tend to be easier to read. Especially ones designed for programming. Though Atkinson hyper legible is great as well.
The dyslexia font just looks distracting imo

Corvid Crone 3d ago

@Kestenan @roknrol @ity

My personal issue with dyslexia is the use of letters to replace words: FBI, CPAC, ASPCA
1.) using all caps usually makes letters all the same height, and with some fonts, all the same width.
2.) now I have to pause to remember what that's supposed to stand for, especially if it's one I don't encounter on a regular basis.
3.) there are more unique words than there are letters, and most organizations are not creative so tend to reuse the same collections of letters.

Edit: so many typos ☹️

etsy²¹² 4d ago

@Kestenan @roknrol @ity sometimes things are for a particular group of people. this one happens to not be for you

@etsyy

We have already resolved what happened here ^^

Please tone it down a bit, thanks <3 /gen

etsy²¹² 4d ago

@ity tone down what? what I said was genuine

edit: the ending bit was strange from me

@etsyy Ah, I might have misread then ^^ You came off a bit strong is what I meant

etsy²¹² 4d ago

@ity sometimes me, you, or another is not the intended audience. and that's okay. support for one is not inherently an attack on another. that's all I meant. misunderstandings happen, though, as do disagreements. all good either way

Marcos Dione 4d ago

@roknrol @ity I use alt texts to understand jokes in languages I can't read :)

Christina 4d ago

@mdione @roknrol @ity I use alt text to understand jokes in my own language (I'm not always up on what is considered funny).

xinit ☕3d ago

@mdione I use the ALT text to add extra context a fair amount of the time. Especially when there's a visual pun or something requiring specific pop culture knowledge, etc.
@roknrol @ity