Ólafur WaageProgramming languages: "We are just a way to operate computers in a way that makes sense to humans."
Programming languages [takes a big joint hit]: "What if there were 5 kinds of nothingness?"
🐈⬛David SommersethI'm throwing in another tiny, obscure, dark corner case .... undefined behavior ....
almibe@olafurw [Snorts line]: And here are the rules for when different kinds of nothing are equal.
Alexander The 1st
Veronica Olsen
Jalil@olafurw Which ones?
1. when something isn't there
2. before something is there
3. when something is empty
4. the mathematical definition
5. when something is untrue
... (takes another hit) that's deep man ...
1. when something isn't there
2. before something is there
3. when something is empty
4. the mathematical definition
5. when something is untrue
... (takes another hit) that's deep man ...
@teivel Nothing is there, nothing is supposed to be there, I put nothing there, we treat this something is as nothing,
@olafurw I forgot about NaN (and false is arguably not nothing??)
Codey McCodeface
Åsmund Steen Skjæveland
Florian Gilcher
lick here for more infoSince people are liking this (for some reason), I felt like explaining the joke (for some reason).
In #JavaScript there are three distinct ways for a plain object to "not have x". There's certainly more if you add prototypes, getters, or worse, but that's on you then.
const a = { x: null };
const b = { x: undefined };
const c = {};
In most cases b and c are treated as the same case:
b.x === c.x; // undefined
JSON.stringify(b) === JSON.stringify(c); // {}
In some cases they're not:
Object.entries(a); // [['x', null]]
Object.entries(b); // [['x', undefined]]
Object.entries(c); // []
In some cases, the distinction matters. For example, if you have a function that takes a partial update to an object, it would be reasonable to take a to mean "set x to null" and to take c to mean "do nothing".
There is no reasonable way to interpret b, but I strongly believe it should be normalized to c, not a. Or throw a compile/runtime error. But certainly not turn undefined into null. That's two distinct kinds of nothingness in their own right, after all!
Benjamin
Lydia Trivia@teivel something should be there but we don't know what (I think this is what SQL NULL is supposed to model)
TeMPOraL@olafurw Programming languages: "*hicc*, we're executable philosophy, biatch! [takes another hit]"
cmdrSprocket
Timothy Wolodzko@olafurw who said you shouldn't study philosophy to be good at programming?
@olafurw the more I think about it, the more intriguing is the idea of having a programming language which would allow for the `Maybe<void>` return type. The implications would be interesting.
Korma Chameleon
ck
harmone@cursedsql @tymwol @olafurw Sounds like it's time to close the book on philosophy and open the book on anger management.
Waltteri@olafurw I'm reminded of this story
> Said the master: “We have learned only that we have learned nothing, yet this is the root of wisdom.”
Peter Bindels@olafurw That's just capturing reality with more accuracy than normal people tend to capture, because most of those cases don't often happen they are still actually relevantly different.
1. There's toilet paper
2. There's no toilet paper, the roll is empty
3. The roll is gone, but the roll holder is empty
4. There is no place to even put a roll if you had one, but there is a toilet
5. The toilet is being rebuilt and the place to mount the roll holder does not currently exist
Most people only care about 1 or not 1 when they ask "is the toilet paper out"... but we kinda need the other details, so we don't try to screw a roll holder into nothingness and crash the system.
L. B. Heuschkel
Sam (yes, that ravenbait)@lbheuschkel @dascandy @olafurw
7. There's toilet paper, but the dog just put it in the toilet.
(Sorry, I know nothing about programming, but a surprising amount about toilet paper.)
Kim@ravenbait @lbheuschkel @dascandy @olafurw The Andrex puppy sneaking into the cubicle by a back door and crapping on your lap was an important metaphor on my concurrent programming course.
jelte
Mike P@lbheuschkel @dascandy @olafurw
A roll of toilet paper appears spontaneously as a statistical fluctuation of the quantum vacuum. We could call this a Boltzmann Bog Roll.
A roll of toilet paper appears spontaneously as a statistical fluctuation of the quantum vacuum. We could call this a Boltzmann Bog Roll.
Flatbush Gardener 🌈
Advanced Persistent Teapot@dascandy @olafurw I also wouldn't say it's that people don't capture that info; it's that (generally) a huge amount of information is captured nonverbally.
Customer: "Can I get some toilet paper?"
Answer 1: uh yeah, in the toilet *points*
Answer 2: One sec, I'll bring some more over
Answer 3: someone just used the last roll, sorry
Answer 4: can't you read? *angrily points at "closed for maintenance" sign*
Answer 5: *in hi-viz and hard hat* what the hell are you doing on my construction site? Get out!
We infer the type of zero from context
Answer 6: sir, please put the teapot back on the display, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the store
The Penguin of Evil@dascandy @olafurw there's toilet paper but no roll.
That's before "2 people put a roll on at the same moment" and "someone knocked down the toilet whilst in use" and all the other stuff that does the real damage for correctness because most programmers are still taught in a serial way so just don't see the problem.
General Strike
Stahldame@GeneralStrike my thought.
When I try to explain new things to my son, I'm at about that level of detail.
@dascandy @olafurw
When I try to explain new things to my son, I'm at about that level of detail.
@dascandy @olafurw
NKT
Osma Suominen
Justin du Coeur
Morten@olafurw From "makes sense to humans" I'm inferring that a lot of programming language designers see the world in unique ways.
Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫Yes, precise and interesting ways. I don't personally trust the humans who want things to be understandable to humans but haven't thought the concept through. This is how you get "AI prompt engineers".
blaue_Fledermaus
ariels@olafurw having read Lem's _Cyberiad_, I know about the great Cerebron's discovery of the 3 different types of nonexistence: mythical, chimerical, or purely hypothetical. (Spoiler: there is at least one other type!)
A good online introduction is available online, but I recommend reading The Dragons of Probability.
https://tentoinfinity.com/2013/05/15/the-dragons-of-probability-by-stanislaw-lem/
A good online introduction is available online, but I recommend reading The Dragons of Probability.
https://tentoinfinity.com/2013/05/15/the-dragons-of-probability-by-stanislaw-lem/
neoluddite
Dieu@olafurw Programming languages; "Before we begin, have you read Sartre's 'Being and Nothingness'?"
Slash909uk@olafurw so:
X=null
X=0
X=0.0
X=""
X={ }
X=[ ]
exists(X)=false
So much fun 😁
Maurizio@olafurw meanwhile C: "I don't know man... 0 == NULL == FALSE... isn't that enough?"
Jonas Stettner@olafurw I prefer prompt engineering over coding it makes everything so much easier /s
Michæl La💤
Spoon Snake - 'am I nothing?' - Noel Fielding's Luxury Comedy
Max Nordlund@olafurw as they say in Assassin's Creed: "Nothing is true; everything is permitted"
woe2you@olafurw Javascript: hold my beer.
Cegorach@olafurw "Let's say we have a type of data that can only contain numbers. And lets store the special value of 'this is not a number'. Now, if you have a number that's not a number, is it equal to another number that's not a number?"
Codhisattva
llogiq@olafurw so do you think programming language designers are nihilists?
Tiss'hivert @olafurw Meanwhile, humans: [philosophy], [theology], [spirituality]…