Mastodawn

Sirius Nov 27, 2024

Jon S. von Tetzchner

When I talk about the importance of going all in on the Fediverse, I speak based on experience.

At Opera we built a massive user community. When I quit, we had something like 35 million registered users and 35 million monthly visitors.

The new Opera management did not see the value of that. They believed it was cheaper and better to just use Facebook and that investing in your own community was a waste of money. So they closed down MyOpera and built a following on Facebook and Twitter instead. Then they got caught by the bait and switch when Facebook changed and you would no longer reach your audience, without paying. Later on Twitter changed as well.

This is important to explain to companies and institutions as they go shopping for social media sites to invest in. The best investment is clearly in your own site, being part of the Fediverse. It is not even all that expensive to do. It may take longer to build, but at least it is your own.

Not saying you cannot build a following on those other sites, but your long term strategy should be the Fediverse with your own server.

We try to lead the way here and thus we build Vivaldi Social. Not just for our selves, but to make a point and support the Fediverse.

#fediverse #Mastodon #Twitter #Threads #BlueSky #Vivaldi

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 26, 2024

I guess Elon Musk wanted to prove my point yet again...

https://www.404media.co/xs-objection-to-the-onion-buying-infowars-is-a-reminder-you-do-not-own-your-social-media-accounts/

#fediverse #Mastodon #Twitter #Threads #BlueSky #Vivaldi

X's Objection to the Onion Buying InfoWars Is a Reminder You Do Not Own Your Social Media Accounts

"X CORP. OWNS THE X ACCOUNTS."

404 Media

Strypey Nov 27, 2024

"On Monday, X filed an objection in The Onion’s bid to buy InfoWars out of bankruptcy."

@jasonkoebler, 2024

https://www.404media.co/xs-objection-to-the-onion-buying-infowars-is-a-reminder-you-do-not-own-your-social-media-accounts/

That's hilarious on so many levels 🤣

X's Objection to the Onion Buying InfoWars Is a Reminder You Do Not Own Your Social Media Accounts

"X CORP. OWNS THE X ACCOUNTS."

404 Media

Strypey Nov 27, 2024

"The legal basis that X asserts in the filing is not terribly interesting. But what is interesting is that X has decided to involve itself at all, and it highlights that you do not own your followers or your account or anything at all on corporate social media."

#JasonKoebler, 2024

https://www.404media.co/xs-objection-to-the-onion-buying-infowars-is-a-reminder-you-do-not-own-your-social-media-accounts/

Governments and other public interest institutions, take note.

#SocialMedia #DataFarms #X

X's Objection to the Onion Buying InfoWars Is a Reminder You Do Not Own Your Social Media Accounts

"X CORP. OWNS THE X ACCOUNTS."

404 Media

@jon Absolutely, Jon. We talked about it a while ago at the MWC in Barcelona.

I've been trying to explain this to many companies and media. But they are moving in flocks to Bluesky, which may well end up as another X.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 26, 2024

We have to keep pushing. Clearly they should have be learning something on the way. It is not only Facebook and Twitter. There is a lot of other social media companies that are no longer there. It is best to invest in your own, interconnected site.

Grassroots Joe Nov 27, 2024

@jon @albertcuesta

I've started a very preliminary conversation with a progressive overtly political organization with a lot of prospective users focused on the risk of Bluesky becoming Twitter 2.0.

Maybe the risk is small, maybe it's large, but can progressive organizations afford even a small risk given the magnitude of the political ramifications if we face a similar situation in late 2027/early 2028?

We'll see how the conversation goes as I work my way up their management ladder.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 27, 2024

@joeinwynnewood @albertcuesta

The point is really to include the Fediverse in your mix. I can understand the need to try out those other networks as well, but IMHO the Fediverse should be a focus for the future.

Grassroots Joe Nov 27, 2024

@jon @albertcuesta

From what I've seen, they're not "trying out" other networks, they appear to be thinking Bluesky is where they and their members are going to end up doing a lot of organizing moving forward.

As I said that seems like an unacceptable risk from strictly a political organizing perspective in front of the 2026 and 2028 elections, the thing they exist to do.

Grassroots Joe Nov 27, 2024

@jon @albertcuesta

Turnkey Fediverse nodes seems like a requirement for not particularly tech savvy progressive organizations.
They may have a stable of data analysts, probably some light web developers, but not server building/management people and definitely not any management interested in managing that kind of function.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 27, 2024

@joeinwynnewood @albertcuesta

That is a business opportunity, to help people get small and medium sized servers onto the Fediverse. I believe there are already some around and I am sure there will be more, like there are for Minecraft. That means organizations can do things in stages. Start small and gradually build their own.

Grassroots Joe Nov 27, 2024

@jon @albertcuesta

Re: That's a business opportunity
Totally agree.

If you know of anyone I/they might want to talk to, I'm all ears.

@albertcuesta @jon It will almost certainly become another X, the only question is on what time frame.

Hotspur🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦Nov 26, 2024

@jon You're providing a strong example to the world. If they don't follow, that's their problem.

"Building new" should apply to more than things you can easily monetize.

Oblomov Nov 26, 2024

@jon imagine ActivityPub had happened before/during Opera Unite.

(I wrote about it some time ago, this <http://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/opera-requiem-3/> may be interesting for you —beware of typos though ;-))

An Opera Requiem, Part III: requiem for the open web?

Revisting the open web 10 years after the rendering engine switch of the Opera browser.

wok

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 26, 2024

When I demonstrated Opera Unite to the then Chief Architect at Facebook, what he saw was distributed Facebook. That was one of the things you could have built with Unite. It was groundbreaking, but sadly the new Opera management did not agree with me on that and binned it, just like they binned Presto a few years later.

At Vivaldi we will continue to do our best to move the Web forward. We have the same passion a lot of us had at Opera and we use that passion to help make a better Web!

Vulpine Labs Inc.Nov 26, 2024

@jon we are currently stationed in a bus as we are working on building it out to be a lab/rv its not reliable to run a server in of the moment as our network isnt setup but will set one up when we can afford it

We also have a server admin that runs our website and gitlab that doesnt understand the value of redundancy and the fediverse so for now we are running on someone elses server in terms of fedi

🐈‍⬛David Sommerseth Nov 26, 2024

It's the same story from a different angle ... if a service doesn't cost anything, it doesn't mean it's free. Just that for the business side: if it didn't have a price tag today, it doesn't mean it won't have it in the future.

Building communities will always have a cost - regardless if the service used for it is free or not. It takes people-hours to build a community, regardless of the service it's being built upon. And changing the social platform is an even more costly job, as you need to rebuild the community.

Leaders not understanding this, leaders who just looks at the account statements and see the cost lines ... they've not understood anything about what a community is about at all.

Leaders not understanding the difference between «free» and »freedom» when discussing social platforms are doomed to fail in the end.

But I don't know if it will be possible to educate leaders who don't grasp it. It seems like you either "get it" or you don't.

Very happy to see YOU grasp the difference.

🇵🇸 Panino, o Moço 🇮🇷Nov 26, 2024

@jon oh, the tragedy... I had a little blog there and Opera Mail was my main mail service! It hurt to lose all that.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 26, 2024

Indeed. It was a crazy move.

Nicole Parsons Nov 26, 2024

Rent-seeking middleware can always be used to extort concessions and hijack your user base of customers & vendors

1. Apple & Spotify - rent seeking middlemen between musicians & music lovers

https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-08-15-private-law-thirty-percent-vig-9013b8531a6b

2. Health insurance - rent-seeking between health care providers and patients
https://pnhp.org/news/the-economist-rent-seeking-in-americas-health-care-system/

3. RealPage - Rent-seeking between landlords & tenants

https://brianlovin.com/hn/34926683

4. Search engines

https://pluralistic.net/2023/11/03/subprime-attention-rent-crisis/#euthanize-rentiers

Apple vs the “free market” - Cory Doctorow - Medium

I’m coming to BURNING MAN! On TUESDAY (Aug 27) at 1PM, I’m giving a talk called “DISENSHITTIFY OR DIE!” at PALENQUE NORTE (7&E). On WEDNESDAY (Aug 28) at NOON, I’m doing a “Talking Caterpillar” Q&A…

Medium

CassandraVert Nov 28, 2024

@Npars01 @jon
Delivery services (not the drivers)
I think it was really predatory delivery services that called my attention to middlemen being the biggest growth industry this century.

kariboka Nov 26, 2024

Watch and learn @mozilla @mozilla

II_ARROWS Nov 27, 2024

@kariboka @mozilla @mozilla @jon Mozilla is failing on their own, sadly. The only truly open browser engine has been in decline since Google entered the market with their deception to make people install Chrome only because they happened to search something.

They have nothing to learn from this, because it's not like the fediverse is really gaining traction, quite the opposite.

I would argue the fediverse needs to learn from Mozilla history.

Ben Aveling Nov 26, 2024

@jon X would like to remind everyone that you do not own your company's X account, X do.
https://www.404media.co/xs-objection-to-the-onion-buying-infowars-is-a-reminder-you-do-not-own-your-social-media-accounts/

X's Objection to the Onion Buying InfoWars Is a Reminder You Do Not Own Your Social Media Accounts

"X CORP. OWNS THE X ACCOUNTS."

404 Media

Jake in the desert Nov 27, 2024

@BenAveling @jon big agree. Was looking for this comment about this news story yesterday. No more walled social media!

Netux Nov 26, 2024

@jon I've been amazed at how far ahead you have been consistently over the years. I really miss the self housing stuff y'all did with opera and the notes and file backup stuff. Cloud and sync before they were buzzwords and Google siloed them.

II_ARROWS Nov 27, 2024

@jon Right, but with everyone jumping on Twitter 2, how do you do change that?
I can't follow those people and small organizations that are closing their Twitter accounts, unless I setup a Bluesky account and download the app.

There is a huge communication problem about Mastodon and ActivityPub. Less then one year ago there has been a similar situation, and people preferred to open an account on Facebook's platform Threads instead of the open alternative.

Not even tech channels and outlets are talking about it.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 27, 2024

In reality you can follow a lot of these people from here. Some are here already. You are also able to follow people on Threads. You can also follow Blogs and the like from here. There is a lot more you can do than you think.

The most important thing, however, is to convince people to join us. Convince them that it is worth it to set up shop here. Welcome them here. They may have their other accounts, but gradually they will see the value of being in a community that engages with them in a mostly positive manner.

Then when Twitter 2 goes down, they will thank you that you told them to join us, because here they still have their following.

II_ARROWS Nov 27, 2024

@jon That's in theory, if those account opt-in to share with one bridge server.
But, leaving alone that as of now I haven't personally found one*, I suppose that doesn't happen because they don't know, care, or understand what either Bluesky and the fediverse do and operate.

* I admit it's a very small sample, butt I can't project 0 to anything big.

Jargoggles Nov 27, 2024

@jon
I mean, we should all be familiar with the enshittification loop by now. Sooner or later, any platform that seeks to turn a profit is going to turn the screws to you once they know you're locked in.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 27, 2024

The point is really that when you have a standards based, distributed system, things do not need to be like that. That is really the beauty of the Web and the Fediverse is really a true member of the Web.

I am not saying there will not be any bad Fediverse servers. There already are. But we can choose with which servers we will federate and that has the potential to keep the Fediverse overall on a straight and narrow!

Strypey Nov 27, 2024

@jon
> So they closed down MyOpera and built a following on Facebook and Twitter instead

That's tragic. If they'd kept MyOpera alive, they'd have been able to implement AP and connect it to the fediverse. Instead of setting up a Mastodon instance and starting from scratch.

Richard E. Rawson, Psy.D., MBA Nov 27, 2024

@jon Wise words—owning your platform ensures you're not at the mercy of ever-changing algorithms or policies. The Fediverse offers a sustainable path for long-term community building. Vivaldi Social is a great example of investing in independence and trust. Inspiring move!

Blort™ 🐀Ⓥ🥋☣️Nov 27, 2024

I'm a big fan of the "find people on other networks and bring them from there to your community" model, similar to POSSE.

Generally though you want to make sure that the experience on the other networks is not the full one, so they have a reason to come to your network. One good way is to just post titles with a link elsewhere, and the full content on your own community.

everton137 Nov 27, 2024

@jon related

https://www.404media.co/xs-objection-to-the-onion-buying-infowars-is-a-reminder-you-do-not-own-your-social-media-accounts/

X's Objection to the Onion Buying InfoWars Is a Reminder You Do Not Own Your Social Media Accounts

"X CORP. OWNS THE X ACCOUNTS."

404 Media

MisterMultiverse Nov 27, 2024

@jon make it foss!

Sharon Machlis Nov 27, 2024

@jon Setting up your own server does make it difficult at the outset to participate in broader conversations, though. I still have another account at one of the larger servers so I can check to see what I might be missing.

Todd Knarr Nov 27, 2024

@jon I think a company needs to separate their product(s) and their user community. It's hard to get people to pay to just be a member of a community, but the user community makes the products the company makes more valuable to users. It is, though, no substitute for having a plan for earning revenue from the products. That can be hard, but long-term enshittification gives a product with a revenue plan an advantage over products that exist only to attract users to be taken advantage of.

Todd Knarr Nov 27, 2024

@jon And the best place to build a community is on a platform where there's no owner to take advantage of your community for their profit.

Mx Verda Nov 27, 2024

….

(I’ll go all in on your mom)

Peter Kovář Nov 27, 2024

@jon When will be Vivaldi fully OSS?

Cheers!
🥂

Tushar Chauhan Nov 27, 2024

@jon You are talking about long term, sustainable vision and human communication. Something that Si valley discourages and actively undermines.

teledyn 𓂀 Nov 27, 2024

@jon @RobertaFidora

It is also important to mention that a Fediverse post can be freely posted and shared on Those Other Social [sic] Media, but the converse is not true. Your 'content' is restricted to only those who consent to tracking, their data then sold without their knowledge.

Lamron🖇Nov 28, 2024

@jon Do you think about auto-cross-posting system(Bluesky and Fediverse)? -> Bridgy Fed
https://fed.brid.gy/

Bridgy Fed

Bridgy Fed is a bridge between decentralized social networks like the fediverse, Bluesky, and web sites and blogs.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Nov 28, 2024

Personally I am not a fan of such solutions, but others are. I prefer the more personal touch of being there on the platform. I am finding this platform, Mastodon and the Fediverse, to be the most fun.

Ténno Seremél’Dec 3, 2024

@jon Heh, good times