Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Since the tankies seem to be coming out again, a reminder:
👉 If Russia stops fighting, there will no longer be a war.
👉 If Ukraine stops fighting, there will no longer be an Ukraine.
enoch_exe_inc@rysiek What kind of tankies would support *either* side of the war?! Most of whom I would call tankies just oppose war, period. And those who aren’t tankies…well, no support for the imperialist proxy war.
I *would* like for Russia to stop the senseless fighting altogether and leave Donbas, Donetsk, and Luhansk, and I do not believe this can be accomplished by throwing more weapons at Ukraine.
@rysiek The ‘liberal position’ of unconditionally supporting Ukraine past the point of reclaiming their territories and invading Russia back actually scares me more than the Russian invasion itself. Western media is scarily competent at whipping up the public into bloodthirsty frenzy, and they manage to do all this without the prompting of their governments.
> The ‘liberal position’ of unconditionally supporting Ukraine past the point of reclaiming their territories and invading Russia back actually scares me …
I was also quite scared of a bunch of imaginary things, but then I remembered: they are imaginary!
I highly recommend that strategy.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Turn on the news and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Or, if you just prefer to keep your head in the sand…
This is not a war that concerns the people of either Russia or Ukraine, but the ruling classes of both…to the detriment of the working classes.
"Look I oppose all violence, so even if the bigger stronger bully started the fight, the weaker kid should just stop fighting."
That's very much supporting the bully.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc I’m thinking in longer terms than that. What happens if throwing more weapons at the problem results in a forever war that leaves Ukraine utterly devastated and forever dependent on foreign economic aid? That’s actually one of the reasons why Ukraine got into this mess in the first place, but I digress.
Can’t we do better than perpetual war? History says we can, but won’t…and that’s unacceptable.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Can’t we have peace talks? Negotiations? A violent revolution in Russia, Ukraine, and the United States that overthrows their imperialist governments? Nope. I guess that while these are certainly solutions that would benefit the people living in these countries, it certainly wouldn’t benefit the ruling class nor line the pockets of the military-industrial complex.
@enoch_exe_inc we can do better than perpetual war, but that requires that we deal with bullies decisively.
Dealing with that particular bully indecisively over the last 20-odd years is how we got into this mess. Moldova, Georgia, Syria…
The line must be drawn somewhere, and it might as well be here.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc By the way, what counts as “bullying”? Oh, I agree that invading Ukraine is a dick move by Russia…but, compared to the United States, it’s a single drop of blood compared to the bucketfuls of blood that repeatedly pour over the heads of nearly every single country in the Global South. Again, not a justification or a defence, but have to face facts: #WeAreTheBaddies.
@enoch_exe_inc first of all, I don't think the hundreds of thousands killed and wounded over the last 1000 days of war in Ukraine are a "drop of blood".
Secondly, I think we are smart enough to be able to walk and chew gum. Imperialism and colonialism are bad regardless who perpetrates them. I protested against Iraq invasion, I loathe US colonialism.
But that doesn't make what Kremlin is doing in Ukraine a "dick move" – it is still state terrorism, attempted genocide, and a war of aggression.
Rihards Olups@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Also, shouldn’t we stop appeasing the appeasementchiks?
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc It’s a “dick move” in that it’s unnecessarily excessive. Despite what the wartime propaganda would have you believe, there *are* in fact a lot of far-right Ukrainian nationalists and literal Nazis—but invading the country is hardly a way to get rid of them. Oh, wait, what was that about containment and the Vietnam War?
In fighting ‘to the last drop of Ukrainian blood’, whose blood will we use when once the last drop of blood has been spilt?
@enoch_exe_inc literal Nazis exist in every country on Earth. It was always a pretext, and a poor one at that.
But people gobbled this up, and to my utter surprise are still repeating it – even in the face of the fact that the Russian state is better described in these terms today than Ukrainian state ever was:
https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc You got me; I have nothing left to say to you war maniacs.
What’s been happening in Ukraine (and Israel, and other wars we supposedly peaceful, democratic countries inexplicably support) has made me take a long hard look in the mirror, and I’ve concluded that we are exactly as responsible for the war in Ukraine as Russian disinformation alleges. They’re right—for all the wrong reasons—but they’re still right regardless.
Martijn VosThe war maniacs are Putin and his supporters. The supporters of Ukraine want peace, not war. But occupation and genocide aren't peace. The war maniacs are the people who want Russia to have its way with Ukraine.
@mcv @rysiek @enoch_exe_inc The supporters of Ukraine want peace? I find that hard to believe with continual arms shipments, windfall profits for arms manufacturers, and exploitation of Ukraine’s labour and natural resources.
@enoch_exe_inc @mcv thank Dog Russian labor is not exploited, Russian arms manufacturers are not making a killing, and natural resources in territories already colonized by Russia are not being exploited!
How is this never part of the conversation, somehow?
How is it not part of the conversation that Kremlin attempts a double genocide: that of Ukrainians, but also that of peoples from Dagestan, Buryatia, and so on – by sending them to the frontlines by the thousands?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/23/russia-partial-military-mobilization-ethnic-minorities/
@enoch_exe_inc @mcv how is it that supporters of a right of an invaded, weaker country are called "war maniacs", and not the supporters of the much bigger, invading country?
And how, pray tell, should the peace be achieved if one side is constantly breaking agreements it signed, from the Budapest Memorandum, through Minsk Agreements?
How, exactly, do you think there can be peace in Ukraine, if Putin's stated goal is for Ukraine not to exist?
"Those supporters of the bullied kid are violence maniacs! They keep using violence to try to intervene and stop the bully!"
This is really incredibly tiresome and repetitive. You really need better talking points at this stage, we've been through all of this a bunch of times. 
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc @mcv Then stop misrepresenting my views. That is also tiresome and repetitive. Do you respond to all people who disagree with you in this manner? If so, goodbye.
rzadkie@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc it's also worth pointing out, that many Russian fascists came to Ukraine in around 2014 after some kind of schism inside their community
fosfeneWhataboutism
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Don’t misrepresent me. I don’t directly oppose the current course of actions, but…it has not significantly changed the situation since a thousand days ago.
It’s scary to see how many “liberals” are so totalitarian that simply expressing a desire not to *prolong* the war is met with petty insults, death threats, and attempts to silence all dissent.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Twenty years ago, it was conservatives and the Iraq War. I’ve always assumed it was an inherent trait of conservatism to be a bloodthirsty warmonger. Now, it turns out liberals are no different.
@enoch_exe_inc it's nice to have this simple, clean division of people into "conservatives" and "liberals". I happen not to identify with either though. Not sure why you keep throwing these terms around.
NeonPurpleStar 
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc i think it's really telling that the number one priority tankies have, is to antagonise whatever the interpret as "the liberals"
not trump supporters and trump himself who has vowed to kill all palenstinians and build trump hotels in gaza, but instead persistently "the liberals"
a "liberal" in the united states is also bernie sanders who was the most outspoken senator against weapons deliveries to israel, or for instance AOC who was also outspoken
not trump supporters and trump himself who has vowed to kill all palenstinians and build trump hotels in gaza, but instead persistently "the liberals"
a "liberal" in the united states is also bernie sanders who was the most outspoken senator against weapons deliveries to israel, or for instance AOC who was also outspoken
@NeonPurpleStar @enoch_exe_inc @rysiek Bernie Sanders and AOC are Social Democrats, a position I don’t agree with as much as I used to, but it’s one I’ll tolerate because it’s by far the most realistic “better option” the United States can become.
That said, there aren’t very many of them. In fact, those two are the only ones that come to mind. Does this strike you as a bit of a problem when it comes to affecting change?
@enoch_exe_inc @rysiek i am a social democrat, and if the choice is between the current system and whatever lenin inspired autocratic regime you want, i will take arms and defend the current system
@NeonPurpleStar @enoch_exe_inc @rysiek I am anarchist, not a communist, and I will fight your defence of your still-capitalist social democracy. That’s why I drew the distinction between myself and the tankies. There is much we agree about—and I certainly tolerate them far more than I tolerate non-leftists—but support Marxist-Leninism I will not.
Do you really not understand what's going on? Ukraine didn't start this war. The US didn't start it either. Russia did. Just like the US started the Iraq War.
Conservatives are the ones who start wars of conquest. Liberals defend the victims of such wars.
@mcv @enoch_exe_inc I don’t think you do. A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current ones and supports every civil rights movement except those that are happening right now. The US may not have started this war, but damn, did they really want it. Anything for the interests of capital.
@enoch_exe_inc I agree with the desire to not prolong the war.
I simply disagree that making the war end on Russian terms (which stopping to arm Ukraine would cause) is a way to actually stop it.
We literally tried that exact strategy in that exact place in 2014. And now here we are.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc I don’t want to end the war on Russian terms either. But I also don’t want billions of dollars in weapons thrown willy-nilly into Ukraine with no way of knowing where they’ll end up or what kinds of militant groups may end up using them against us in the future.
That’s what happened during the Soviet-Afghanistan War, and we got 9/11 and the whole War on Terror in return. There has to be a way to stop this without causing blowback. There has to be.
@enoch_exe_inc well let me know if you come up with one. I would gladly support it.
Meanwhile, I will continue to support the invaded country against its genocidal invader.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc
again, this person is not arguing in good faith
his concern is what civilians might be targeted by western arms that are currently delivered to ukraine, meanwhile ukrainians civilians are hit every fucking day by russian weapons, and even an ICBM as of today
again, this person is not arguing in good faith
his concern is what civilians might be targeted by western arms that are currently delivered to ukraine, meanwhile ukrainians civilians are hit every fucking day by russian weapons, and even an ICBM as of today
@NeonPurpleStar @enoch_exe_inc @rysiek I am absolutely arguing in good faith and was, incidentally, just wondering whether any of you were.
Is it so much to want an end to this pointless war. Sending arms is only a temporary solution—and from Russia’s perspective (regardless of whether or not it’s true), it’s provocation, and thus, escalation. Sooner or later, it will spiral out of control, and we will have either a nuclear war or a conventional Third World War.
stfn 
@enoch_exe_inc @rysiek nope. Giving to Ukraine every possible weapon, training and material is the only way to force Russia to leave the territories they invaded. Putin only understands the language of force, and so that fucker needs to be forced to his knees and trampled into the ground to ensure the safety of Eastern Europe.