Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Since the tankies seem to be coming out again, a reminder:
👉 If Russia stops fighting, there will no longer be a war.
👉 If Ukraine stops fighting, there will no longer be an Ukraine.
enoch_exe_inc@rysiek What kind of tankies would support *either* side of the war?! Most of whom I would call tankies just oppose war, period. And those who aren’t tankies…well, no support for the imperialist proxy war.
I *would* like for Russia to stop the senseless fighting altogether and leave Donbas, Donetsk, and Luhansk, and I do not believe this can be accomplished by throwing more weapons at Ukraine.
"Look I oppose all violence, so even if the bigger stronger bully started the fight, the weaker kid should just stop fighting."
That's very much supporting the bully.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc I’m thinking in longer terms than that. What happens if throwing more weapons at the problem results in a forever war that leaves Ukraine utterly devastated and forever dependent on foreign economic aid? That’s actually one of the reasons why Ukraine got into this mess in the first place, but I digress.
Can’t we do better than perpetual war? History says we can, but won’t…and that’s unacceptable.
@enoch_exe_inc we can do better than perpetual war, but that requires that we deal with bullies decisively.
Dealing with that particular bully indecisively over the last 20-odd years is how we got into this mess. Moldova, Georgia, Syria…
The line must be drawn somewhere, and it might as well be here.
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc By the way, what counts as “bullying”? Oh, I agree that invading Ukraine is a dick move by Russia…but, compared to the United States, it’s a single drop of blood compared to the bucketfuls of blood that repeatedly pour over the heads of nearly every single country in the Global South. Again, not a justification or a defence, but have to face facts: #WeAreTheBaddies.
@enoch_exe_inc first of all, I don't think the hundreds of thousands killed and wounded over the last 1000 days of war in Ukraine are a "drop of blood".
Secondly, I think we are smart enough to be able to walk and chew gum. Imperialism and colonialism are bad regardless who perpetrates them. I protested against Iraq invasion, I loathe US colonialism.
But that doesn't make what Kremlin is doing in Ukraine a "dick move" – it is still state terrorism, attempted genocide, and a war of aggression.
Rihards Olups@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc Also, shouldn’t we stop appeasing the appeasementchiks?
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc It’s a “dick move” in that it’s unnecessarily excessive. Despite what the wartime propaganda would have you believe, there *are* in fact a lot of far-right Ukrainian nationalists and literal Nazis—but invading the country is hardly a way to get rid of them. Oh, wait, what was that about containment and the Vietnam War?
In fighting ‘to the last drop of Ukrainian blood’, whose blood will we use when once the last drop of blood has been spilt?
@enoch_exe_inc literal Nazis exist in every country on Earth. It was always a pretext, and a poor one at that.
But people gobbled this up, and to my utter surprise are still repeating it – even in the face of the fact that the Russian state is better described in these terms today than Ukrainian state ever was:
https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc You got me; I have nothing left to say to you war maniacs.
What’s been happening in Ukraine (and Israel, and other wars we supposedly peaceful, democratic countries inexplicably support) has made me take a long hard look in the mirror, and I’ve concluded that we are exactly as responsible for the war in Ukraine as Russian disinformation alleges. They’re right—for all the wrong reasons—but they’re still right regardless.
Martijn VosThe war maniacs are Putin and his supporters. The supporters of Ukraine want peace, not war. But occupation and genocide aren't peace. The war maniacs are the people who want Russia to have its way with Ukraine.
@mcv @rysiek @enoch_exe_inc The supporters of Ukraine want peace? I find that hard to believe with continual arms shipments, windfall profits for arms manufacturers, and exploitation of Ukraine’s labour and natural resources.
@enoch_exe_inc @mcv thank Dog Russian labor is not exploited, Russian arms manufacturers are not making a killing, and natural resources in territories already colonized by Russia are not being exploited!
How is this never part of the conversation, somehow?
How is it not part of the conversation that Kremlin attempts a double genocide: that of Ukrainians, but also that of peoples from Dagestan, Buryatia, and so on – by sending them to the frontlines by the thousands?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/23/russia-partial-military-mobilization-ethnic-minorities/
@enoch_exe_inc @mcv how is it that supporters of a right of an invaded, weaker country are called "war maniacs", and not the supporters of the much bigger, invading country?
And how, pray tell, should the peace be achieved if one side is constantly breaking agreements it signed, from the Budapest Memorandum, through Minsk Agreements?
How, exactly, do you think there can be peace in Ukraine, if Putin's stated goal is for Ukraine not to exist?
"Those supporters of the bullied kid are violence maniacs! They keep using violence to try to intervene and stop the bully!"
This is really incredibly tiresome and repetitive. You really need better talking points at this stage, we've been through all of this a bunch of times. 
@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc @mcv Then stop misrepresenting my views. That is also tiresome and repetitive. Do you respond to all people who disagree with you in this manner? If so, goodbye.
rzadkie@rysiek @enoch_exe_inc it's also worth pointing out, that many Russian fascists came to Ukraine in around 2014 after some kind of schism inside their community
fosfeneWhataboutism