Mastodawn

Jiri 🧙Oct 11, 2024

The absolutely horrifying and surreal thing right now is having no idea if in about 20 days I’ll be living a relatively similar life under an upcoming Harris presidency, or be working on the second stage process to move overseas, completely uproot my entire life, sell all my belongings and home, and leave my family, job, and friends before the US crumbles into an authoritarian and anti-LGBT & anti-women theocratic state. It makes it tough to like, anything. And somehow, despite all the scandals, evil, incompetence, and cruelty, that is currently almost a statistical coin flip.

Harry W.Oct 11, 2024

@hacks4pancakes I cannot understand how it's still a coin toss. I don't understand how half the US look at the options and still vote for him?!

I'm sorry for how stressful it must be. I'm over the pond, and it worries me what might be coming, and what effect it might have.

@hazz223 it’s not half. It’s like a quarter, but only half of Americans care to vote, or vote for a plausible candidate. And our voting power is wildly skewed by where we live due to our Electoral College that favors rural states. A farmer in Georgia has a ton more power to impact the election than I do with our individual votes. Sadly, people who have to live around different people tend to be the more liberal ones…

Harry W.Oct 11, 2024

@hacks4pancakes the whole electorial collage is nuts!
Our voting system here is old hat, but it's still a little fairer than the U.S. system.

I've certainly got my fingers crossed that all the polls are wrong, and it'll be a landslide victory for Harris.

@hazz223 sadly it’s pretty much a matter of who wins the swing states, especially Pennsylvania. Watch those races.

mr_baub Oct 11, 2024

@hacks4pancakes @hazz223 It's even crazier when you consider the option of no one winning a majority in the Electoral College. The election gets decided by the House, where each state gets one vote. CA, NY, and IL get 3 votes for their combined population of 71 million people. WY, ND, and SD get 3 votes for their combined population of 2.3 million people. If that happens, the former POTUS is elected.

Robert Link Oct 11, 2024

@mr_baub @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 This is the actual GOP plan, just like 2016.

A. No, née: Moose Oct 11, 2024

@mr_baub @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 while everything you say is factually right, I still need to point out, that you used two letters too many in the abbreviation referring to the former guy. Number 3 and 4 only are needed when the former president used to be a decent person.

Auntie Mame Oct 12, 2024

@mr_baub @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Each state gets 1 vote per thousands of people in population. Then 2 more votes to represent the 2 Senators. So each state has minimum 3 electoral votes. But a big state like CA gets 52 electoral votes.

mr_baub Oct 12, 2024

@ymasumac @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Yes, but there is always the option that no one gets 270 electoral votes. In that scenario, it goes to the House. That is why there was a push to try and eliminate the split electoral votes in Nebraska in the hope of causing this situation.

@hacks4pancakes @hazz223

It's not just a matter of caring to vote, it's also about votes being actively suppressed. Hundreds of thousands of people have been struck from voter roles. Polling places have been closed. In some places, it's illegal to drive someone else to a polling place. Early voting shortened, mail in voting made more difficult. Election day is a work day for most people, and employers are only legally required to give 2 hours to vote.

We had an opportunity to correct some of this, and Joe Manchin decided that the filibusterer was more important. That man bears more blame for this than any one person who decides to stay home or vote for a third party.

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 We can still kick their asses if we all make a minimal effort to verify our registrations and find out where our polling place is and freaking show up. It isn't that hard.

@farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223 both toots are true 100%. Plenty of disenfranchised voters. Also plenty of privileged voters who do not bother to.

@farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

We can, and we should, and hopefully we will. But just like your dentist shaming you doesn't actually make you want to take better care of your teeth, blaming the victims of voter suppression isn't going to make them want to show up.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

nobody is doing that though

nobody sane blames someone who is prevented from contributing

rather, you're changing the topic

you need to admit there are toxic idealists out there who do not vote or vote third party

that's privileged and entitled behavior by those people:

they act in a way there will be no consequences for them, while they throw others under the bus for their "morality"- ego masturbation

they don't know or they don't care

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

> you need to admit there are toxic idealists out there who do not vote or vote third party

Okay. What makes you think they're the problem?

Your phrasing suggests that you're too angry/afraid to think strategically about this. If you act out of anger or fear without carefully considering what made you feel that way, it's easy to direct it at other people who are angry/afraid, instead of at the people who are causing the problem.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

that's my point

those who do not vote or vote third party are valuing their emotional reactions over strategic thinking

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce so if I understand correctly, your're sayinig that valuing emotional reactions over strategic thinking is toxic?

@notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

absolutely

those who intend us harm try hard to reduce us to anxiety anger and loathing, so that we short circuit our higher faculties and make decisions that help them, and harm us, in the end. and many of us are too emotionally hobbled to notice the manipulation

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce yes, that is definitely something people who intend us harm do.

@notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Voting based on how it makes you feel about yourself instead of based on what is best for the planet is narcissistic. Convincing others to do the same is toxic.

Jay Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 The point he’s making is that in a close race, every sliver counts, and the sliver that purports to be for liberal causes choosing not to vote because they believe that makes them better moral actors than the ones that do have the ability to shift the race.

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @farbel

Duly noted. Are you all doing any GOTV or outreach right now?

@notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

Jay Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Yes.

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@WhiteCatTamer Then I would encourage you to discuss this topic, and the vote-shaming approach in general, with whoever the most experienced members of your group are. Especially if you're working with a downballot local race.

@benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 I think maybe those who feel ashamed should consider why, instead of blaming the messenger.

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@farbel I think you should mention that to whoever is in charge of your voter outreach scripts, so they can take it into account.

@WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Every assumption you make in that comment is erroneous.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

what is your concrete effective suggestion to improve outreach other than "it needs to be changed"?

yes it needs to be changed

to what?

a serious question, if you have anything to offer

do we coddle the feelings of those who do not vote, seduce them into voting?

since we lack the ability to appeal to their sense of social responsibility, since if they had that, they would already be voting

Callisto Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 As someone who's also done a whole lot of GOTV and more persuasion than I'd have chosen ... I wouldn't call it "coddling" to acknowledge that there's voter suppression, to acknowledge that there are a LOT of barriers to voting, which include not only the immediate barriers to the ballot box, but also things like gerrymandering, lack of information access, simply being too overwhelmed to learn.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@callisto @darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

yeah, i had this problem in another thread

group 1: 100% valid reasons to be unable to vote due to disenfranchisement and voter suppression

group 2: completely able to vote, just choosing not to

i am not sure why discussion of group 2 automatically invokes discussion of group 1, when i see two entirely different topics

but many many times i talk about group 2, and group 1 gets invoked

i don't understand it

Catherine is not complacent Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @callisto @darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hazz223

What crosses my eyes is the ‘I’m not voting in this election because I don’t like the POTUS candidates” folks.
Like somehow it’s the only election ever so every four years they get to dust off the same old statement while completely ignoring every other elected office. They don’t even know who’s on their local school board.

Callisto Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Sorry I guess I missed the other thread where you distinguished the groups. Most people don't, so it's kind of reflexive for those of us on the ground to get our backs up in defense of the folks we're trying to help get to the polls.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@callisto @darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

no i get it, lots of reason why people don't vote, and there's crosschatter because for each group the approach is very diferent

Callisto Oct 12, 2024

I've been thinking about this (plenty of time to think since contact rate has been abysmal since July - I'd thought it was the heat, but still nobody's answering their doors now). I'm thinking now that people who are perceived as choosing not to vote, fall into three categories:

(1) People who really, truly have no significant barriers and just choose not to vote. Those people are so ignorant of their privilege that they'd vote for Trump anyway. Good riddance.

1/n

Callisto Oct 12, 2024

(2) People who don't fully understand, and/or are ashamed of, their own barriers to voting. I have in mind Devon Price's fantastic essay "Laziness Does Not Exist" - his focus wasn't on voting, but the points he makes are universal to any task or demand. https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/laziness-does-not-exist

... 2/4

Laziness Does Not Exist

But unseen barriers do

Devon Price

Jay Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Do you plan to vote?

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@WhiteCatTamer @darcher @benroyce @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 I have voted already.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

what is your approach other than "don't voter shame"

a serious question as to effectiveness

it seems to me that blame shifting away from those who do not vote doesn't achieve anything, just as much as you would say that "voter shaming" doesn't achieve anything

many lack the social responsibility to vote

but as with many toxic personal problems like that, you can't help someone if they don't admit they have a problem

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @darcher @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Someone made a comment about dentists shaming people about their teeth. Pretty sure they blocked me soon after, but I wanted to say that My dental hygiene definitely benefitted from a bit of shaming.

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce I will, again and stil gently, encourage you to discuss this with people you trust, who have also done significant amounts of GOTV. Typically they will tell you up front that turnout is more effective than conversion, and also that if you do want to persuade you have to "meet people where they are" or some variation on that.

So maybe before asking what to do instead of shaming, ask "who am I trying to persuade?"

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Have you done significant amounts of GOTV, and if so what are you doing now?

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@farbel I've done significant amounts of GOTV, as well as some other kinds of organizing, but right now I'm just trying to prevent people who think they're helping from fucking this up any worse than what's strictly necessary.

@benroyce @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

@darcher @farbel @benroyce @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hazz223 would you please all remove me from copy? I empathize but I’m handing by a thread.

Jay Oct 11, 2024

@hacks4pancakes My bad; I keep forgetting to do that in threads…

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@hacks4pancakes @darcher @benroyce @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hazz223 done. You can also mute the convo by clicking on the three dots at the lower right.

@farbel @darcher @benroyce @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hazz223 I’m not in your client and not by a PC. I’m sorry.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @farbel @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hazz223

just to clarify:

you are saying that blame is on those who shame nonvoters, and not the nonvoters themselves?

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

thank you. so you're suggesting a sort of intervention, psychological counseling, or therapeutic approach as to assuaging the emotions of those who do not vote?

since we're beyond strategic thinking and rational reasons as to why some people don't vote, and well into emotional reactions as the basis for their intransigence

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce honestly? I don't think you're going to learn anything from me, because you don't trust me. But if you can find somebody you trust, who is also an experienced organizer, and you talk to them about it, who knows?

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

it's not a matter of trust, i just look dimly at blame shift away from those who don't vote

they deserve 100% of the blame

so i prod you for concrete solutions, because blame shift doesn't solve anything

and to clarify: i am specifically talking about those who are able to vote, and choose not to

i am not at all talking about those who are unable to vote due to voter suppression

David Scott Moyer Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @darcher @WhiteCatTamer @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 We all know someone like that personally. Every election, I try to convince at least one apathetic voter to show up. I am usually successful. If we all do this, we win.

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce my concrete solution, for you, is to spend some time talking to people you think should vote, so that you can find out for yourself what works to motivates them.

The term for the people you're mad at is "principled" non-voters. Thera are so few of them that it's ridiculous to even mention them, and only people who haven't done much GOTV focus on them. The people you win or lose with are "marginal" and "disinterested" non-voters.

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223

very well said, and thank you

it is 100% valid to say that the toxic idealist nonvoter is not the population to aim at, because the toxic idealist nonvoter is immovable dead weight

while there are others that can be reached, because their motivations are different

Chairman Meow ᓚᘏᗢ 🐿️🍉Oct 11, 2024

> there are others that can be reached, because their motivations are different

Precisely. And I'm not a fan of "online isn't real life" but one thing that's very different is that social media tricks you into thinking that people are paying attention. Most of them aren't, and those are the ones you should care about. In particular you should listen to WHY they don't pay attention.

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223

thank you, this was a fruitful conversation. you're absolutely right

Jay Oct 11, 2024

@darcher @benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223 Is this something that you communicate to leftists who accuse Democrats of “pandering to the right” and “ignoring the left” when the focus is on moderates or the disenfranchised? Do you push back on that, too?

Again: do you plan to vote?

Janis Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

Offer something better. One of the better things is dignity and respect. Another is the confidence in having a thing people want, and knowing everyone wants to have that.

Leave the cookies on the table. They'll get eaten

If you expect immediate capitulation, you're pissing on the cookies.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 11, 2024

@janisf @darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223

very well said, but allow me an analogy:

an alcoholic

the same psychology as a nonvoter: doing something toxic that hurts them (drinking/ not voting)

what worries me is they don't change their behavior until they hit rock bottom and admit they have a problem (lose their house and their wife/ lose their country to fascism)

how do you get an alcoholic/ nonvoter to change *before* the tragedy that causes self-reflection

Urzl Oct 11, 2024

@benroyce @janisf @darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hazz223 Trump failed to even accomplish anything, a historic failure of a presidency. I don't understand even if you believed his bullshit why you'd nominate him again given his history of failure.

If actual observed failure - pandemic bungling, proven collusion with Russia, increased taxes on workers and inability to wrangle his own party into doing anything of substance hasn't convinced voters then I'm not sure anything would.

draNgNon Oct 11, 2024

yes

apart from the strategic value, doing do also soothes that pesky feeling of being a better moral actor 😡

@WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223