@hacks4pancakes I cannot understand how it's still a coin toss. I don't understand how half the US look at the options and still vote for him?!

I'm sorry for how stressful it must be. I'm over the pond, and it worries me what might be coming, and what effect it might have.

@hacks4pancakes @hazz223

It's not just a matter of caring to vote, it's also about votes being actively suppressed. Hundreds of thousands of people have been struck from voter roles. Polling places have been closed. In some places, it's illegal to drive someone else to a polling place. Early voting shortened, mail in voting made more difficult. Election day is a work day for most people, and employers are only legally required to give 2 hours to vote.

We had an opportunity to correct some of this, and Joe Manchin decided that the filibusterer was more important. That man bears more blame for this than any one person who decides to stay home or vote for a third party.

@farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

We can, and we should, and hopefully we will. But just like your dentist shaming you doesn't actually make you want to take better care of your teeth, blaming the victims of voter suppression isn't going to make them want to show up.

@notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

nobody is doing that though

nobody sane blames someone who is prevented from contributing

rather, you're changing the topic

you need to admit there are toxic idealists out there who do not vote or vote third party

that's privileged and entitled behavior by those people:

they act in a way there will be no consequences for them, while they throw others under the bus for their "morality"- ego masturbation

they don't know or they don't care

@benroyce @notNapoleon @farbel @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

> you need to admit there are toxic idealists out there who do not vote or vote third party

Okay. What makes you think they're the problem?

Your phrasing suggests that you're too angry/afraid to think strategically about this. If you act out of anger or fear without carefully considering what made you feel that way, it's easy to direct it at other people who are angry/afraid, instead of at the people who are causing the problem.

@WhiteCatTamer @benroyce @farbel

Duly noted. Are you all doing any GOTV or outreach right now?

@notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

@WhiteCatTamer Then I would encourage you to discuss this topic, and the vote-shaming approach in general, with whoever the most experienced members of your group are. Especially if you're working with a downballot local race.

@benroyce @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

what is your approach other than "don't voter shame"

a serious question as to effectiveness

it seems to me that blame shifting away from those who do not vote doesn't achieve anything, just as much as you would say that "voter shaming" doesn't achieve anything

many lack the social responsibility to vote

but as with many toxic personal problems like that, you can't help someone if they don't admit they have a problem

@benroyce I will, again and stil gently, encourage you to discuss this with people you trust, who have also done significant amounts of GOTV. Typically they will tell you up front that turnout is more effective than conversion, and also that if you do want to persuade you have to "meet people where they are" or some variation on that.

So maybe before asking what to do instead of shaming, ask "who am I trying to persuade?"

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

thank you. so you're suggesting a sort of intervention, psychological counseling, or therapeutic approach as to assuaging the emotions of those who do not vote?

since we're beyond strategic thinking and rational reasons as to why some people don't vote, and well into emotional reactions as the basis for their intransigence

@benroyce honestly? I don't think you're going to learn anything from me, because you don't trust me. But if you can find somebody you trust, who is also an experienced organizer, and you talk to them about it, who knows?

@WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

@darcher @WhiteCatTamer @farbel @notNapoleon @hacks4pancakes @hazz223

it's not a matter of trust, i just look dimly at blame shift away from those who don't vote

they deserve 100% of the blame

so i prod you for concrete solutions, because blame shift doesn't solve anything

and to clarify: i am specifically talking about those who are able to vote, and choose not to

i am not at all talking about those who are unable to vote due to voter suppression