the fucking Salvation Army had the nerve to send us a piece of paper mail asking for donations

so we figure it's time for our annual reminder to please not donate to the Salvation Army because their mission and their services are explicitly hostile to queer people.

the really nice thing about hosting our own infrastructure is that, when somebody really deserves it, we can say "fuck"
@ireneista
there are instances where you can't?
that's cruel
@Doomed_Daniel for example, twitter and youtube both forbid it

@ireneista
ok, but those are no fediverse instances ;)

(also, pretty sure I regularly used fuck when I still used twitter years ago, never got any complaints, though it's possible that THE ALGORITHM punished me)

@ireneista
I'm on a Discord "server" that bans some words including fuck, meaning you can't send messages with them, and always find it quite irritating when that happens.
It's not like its target audience are small kids or something..
@Doomed_Daniel yeah. it's what comes of putting things under the control of hierarchical power structures, honestly. it isn't even all that relevant whether they're corporate ones. hierarchies need to worry about their own survival, and in the face of outside threats they'll often give in to pressure at the expense of the people they nominally serve.
@ireneista
I mean, in the end it's their "server" so they can impose their rules, and they have other rules that I appreciate (like no nazi-frog memes, that unfortunately otherwise are pretty popular on Discord), but policing language like that always feels a bit like kindergarten
@Doomed_Daniel sure, absolutely. it's not unreasonable for the people who run the server to have rules of that general nature, it's unreasonable for so much of human social activity to be in places where there's someone with the ability to enforce rules like that at all.
@Doomed_Daniel humans are very good at making rules that are bad for humans. we do not believe there would be room for humanity to change and grow, in a world where we were all held to some fixed set of rules about how we speak at all times. that's true no matter how nominally correct the rules themselves might be.
@ireneista
I agree, but also, one Discord "server" is just one little place, big social networks and the like should be less restrictive about language
(and on the other hand, probably more restrictive about what's actually said or shown, it's not like that kind of rules prevent disinformation or hate on Twitter or Youtube)

@ireneista
related to the old thing about enforcing politeness as means of oppression, instead of *actually* protecting anyone.

(in the case of twitter etc, the aforementioned Discord server is a generally friendly place)

@Doomed_Daniel absolutely

@Doomed_Daniel the ends do not justify the means, because the means become the ends.

if the tool that's used is requiring people to be polite, at some point after doing it enough, politeness starts to be a goal in itself; any original goal (such as safety or justice) gets forgotten.

@Doomed_Daniel if you've ever seen us worrying about whether a proposed activism strategy "embodies justice", this is what we mean
@Doomed_Daniel no, yeah, it's technically true that there are plenty of places on fedi that would allow it. we just don't like being subject to other people's rules in general, especially when respectability has been a core concept in writing the rules.
@Doomed_Daniel as regards twitter, since assessing the significance of the word was contextual, enforcement was driven largely by reporting. therefore, as you'd expect, it was disproportionately enforced against visible minorities. we saw trans feminine people get banned for it following mass-reporting campaigns.
@Doomed_Daniel we regarded having to worry about that as a moral injury, but we weren't interested in actually dealing with the consequences, so we toed the company line.

@ireneista
ok, I never was very visible and am not really part of a targeted minority, so it makes sense that I never got into trouble (apart from maybe becoming even less visible thanks to their algorithm, who knows)

I see the freedom that a custom instance gives, but I'm too lazy (and as far as I can tell the administrators of my instance are ok - but of course like on Twitter I'm in a privileged position and not very visible)

@Doomed_Daniel oh that is totally fair. we're not advocating that everyone should run their own, we realize it's a lot of work (in fact we just spent a few minutes in the middle of this conversation fixing something we broke while upgrading it...)

but it's work that makes us happy, so we do it :)

@Doomed_Daniel @ireneista On Twitter you can say "fuck" if the context is "I fucking hate [insert minority]". If you are a minority you get banned for saying "fuck" though. That's how it was last time I used it about a year ago.
@Doomed_Daniel
@ireneista
Oh you wouldn't guess all the things you actually can't say in the chat window of a chinese based MMO game (ie personal estimate of 90% of the casual mobile game market by revenue).
Things like Tiananmen Square will show up as asterisks, or somehow the message won't make it through at all.. baad network bois, baad..!

@snaeqe @Doomed_Daniel we would, because we have experience in this topic, but it's upsetting. the one we were shocked to learn about during the Dragonfly escalation[1] was air quality.

[1] https://archive.thinkprogress.org/google-dragonfly-china-censorship-human-rights-fe1fe1ddf55a/

Google’s secret ‘Dragonfly’ project is a major threat to human rights

"This has much wider implications for Google, and for human rights online more generally."

@ireneista

When I discovered that, I was just stunned about the depth.. Search engines, news sites etc; I'd expect those to be censored, prohibited from displaying.. "unpleasant" content to chinese residents; I was perplexed though that this would even cover messages in the subordinate chat function of a mobile game, even when neither sender nor receiver were located in China..

@snaeqe a tool of control becomes its own reason for existing. once it's made, if it isn't always growing in scope and power, its existence is under threat....
@snaeqe pardon the excessively philosophical answer but we think that's the more fundamental truth here, more useful to think about than just trying to figure out which specific leaders have what kind of bad intent or whatever
@ireneista fuck the Salvation Army to death.

Yeah I am once again reminded that enforced civility is reactionary bullshit. I love running my own shit.
@decay OMG DECAY!!! HIIIII! i miss you!
@adrienne hey! I'm around, just not super much, but I'm trying to get more back in the swing of elephant site

@ireneista

I remember when they used to go to all the pubs and beg for money ... And I would say "the treatment of the LGBT people is why I will never donate, bye. I said bye!"

Hugz & xXx

@Melissabeartrix thanks for doing that <3

@ireneista

I have for 30 plus years ... Hugz

Hugz & xXx

@ireneista @pandanus A family member who cleans the house of a head honcho in the Salvation Army in North Sydney told me they have two BMW cars, a double garage, seven bedrooms, three bathrooms, a pool, & large gated surrounds. 🤔

@ireneista
The Salvation Army Major showed up looking for signatures against the homosexual law reform petition ... he left.

The greek god flatmate was washing a car in the front yard wearing a pair of shorts one size two small. The Salvation Army Major was seen staring with his tongue hanging out.

Shortly thereafter the Salvation Army Major was sent all the way down the line ... something about the very gay public toilets down the road.

@ireneista TBH, I think anti-queer orgs should be criminalized.
@ireneista Young homeless people: Centrepoint and YMCAHousing. They both provide not only housing, but counselling and training.

@ireneista If you're in the US or Canada, and they included a Business Reply Mail envelope, it may interest you to know that such an envelope should also function as a prepaid mailing label were it to be attached to a big heavy box.

Everyone could use a cinder block every now and then. They make great paperweights — the ultimate practical gift!

@ireneista also because their high level management scrapes maximal personal profit off the top. And many times employees are treated poorly.

My mother worked for the salvation army and her manager scammed her out of $20000.

@ireneista PREACH IT!!! DO NOT DONATE TO SALVATION ARMY!!!!!
@ireneista not just queer people but they try to indoctrinate you. their shelters are very strict and you basically have to become a Christian to receive aid…
@ireneista Agreed. Their homelessness/housing programs require abstinence from drugs too (here, at least) which is very discriminatory.

@ireneista The season has come once again for me to share this over 100 year old verse about how shitty the Salvation Army is.

🎶 And the Starvation Army, they play
And they sing and they clap and they pray
Till they get all your coin on the drum
Then they tell you when you're on the bum:

You will eat, bye and bye
In that glorious land above the sky
Work and pray, live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die 🎶

@ireneista So that is still an issue then. My research last year to see if things had changed was kind of inconclusive. They sent me one of those things too the other day.
@ireneista @mawhrin, But Not Your Salvation, I see.
@Krazov @ireneista universal salvation™ (limited warranty, t&c apply, available until the stock clears)
@mawhrin @Krazov the god whose army they consider themselves to be, only wants queer people who are willing to promise to not actually live our lives or seek happiness
@ireneista @mawhrin, this reminds of the old adage that "I'm not afraid of God, it's his fanclub I'm scared of."

@ireneista @inthehands I got a fairly expensive fundraising packet recently from a Catholic-Church-affiliated boarding school that is currently being sued for enabling numerous sexual assaults.

I do not know how they thought this was something remotely acceptable to do.

@ireneista please post supporting evidence so I can propagate.

@RolandOfGilead this is our personal testimony based on numerous conversations over the years with people we know well who've been directly affected. if someone wants to volunteer an article from a reputable news organization, we'll let you know; we don't have one to hand.

we recognize that that is probably a will-not-reshare for you, and we think that's a completely reasonable decision on your part.

@RolandOfGilead there are a fair number of people who do take us seriously on things like this, so we think it has value for that group; we have no expectation that it's useful to people outside the social circles where our name carries weight.
@RolandOfGilead we did find https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/12/16/21003560/salvation-army-anti-lgbtq-controversies-donations which looks pretty thorough. we think the article is perhaps too kind to them, but it does explain the allegations clearly, and after all they have a journalistic responsibility to keep in mind.
The Salvation Army says it doesn’t discriminate against LGBTQ people. Critics say that’s not true.

The organization does a lot to help underserved people, including members of the LGBTQ community. Still, it has a long history of alleged discrimination.

Vox

@ireneista I *really* hate how "bellringing" for them ends up being a default/fallback option for high school community service. Good job, school system, making kids contribute to their own/their friends' oppression through required, unpaid child labour!

(IIRC they knew it was terrible but there weren't really any other options. I don't blame the kids.)