I asked around so-called influencers why they were not on #Mastodon . Here are the most common replies:
1) We can't go viral on Mastodon (read as we can't game the system because humans only boost good stuff)
2) They want a algo driven system (why do you want to see angry posts all day & night?)
3) You can't make money on Mastodon (WTF that even mean?)
4) It is way too technical & confusing. Which server to join? WTF is the server?
Only the last one is valid. The rest are all lazy reasons.
The disdain for anyone that makes money through content online, is palpable. I'm not trying to change your opinion on that. I'm just pointing it out.
Going viral doesn't mean gaming the system. Most content goes viral because it is novel, entertaining, and fun.
And as I've said on here many, many times, the most viewed content on social media by far isn't angry content. It's happy/funny content. Twitter and 4chan are miserable places. TikTok and Instagram are happier places.
I see a lot of replies of the form:
"You can make money on Mastodon! You just have to do A, B, and C! It works!"
And:
"We don't want influencers on Mastodon."
The thing I find funny about the "You can make money on Mastodon!" claim, is that it's almost always proclaimed by Mastodon dudes that don't make any money through their social media content, talking about people that do make money on their social media content. 0% experience, 100% confidence.🙂🙃
2/N
The thing I like about the other replies, ("We don't want influencers on Mastodon!") is that at least it's honest? 🤷🏿♂️
People sit around and imagine what influencers are like, decide that they don't like these people as a group, and then say that they're happy those people are not here. In all sincerity, I respect that.
I feel the same way about "prank content" creators. I find the pranks annoying, dangerous, disrespectful, and unfunny.
3/N
@mttaggart
May I suggest attacking people selling their cultural production sucks.
And likewise attacking a platform because it's not designed to work well as a sales platform also not cool?
@mekkaokereke @thetaggartinstitute @nixCraft
@mttaggart
I did not mean you.
But the flip side of the reply guys, is the "influencers" so very, very keen that people join them elsewhere.
It's not a consumers Vs producers thing.
It's just that there are people who... In every role.
@mekkaokereke @thetaggartinstitute @nixCraft
I don't think the good influencers are bad.
MKBHD is an influencer. He influences the tech and automotive industries. Back in the day, you used to have to see what Walt Mossberg thought of a new piece of tech. As a child, MKBHD changed the industry with just a camera, his voice, and his opinions.
A recent smartphone camera shootout:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VRoTOE3FqT0
His first video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9gk_rl3y_SU
His videos go viral.
He's not gaming the algorithm.
He's not selling hate.
4/N
@molly0xfff is an influencer. Through sharp criticism, deep technical expertise, and a better understanding of the nature of humor and satire than most professional comedians, she influences US securities policy, the venture capital industry, large tech companies, and fintech consumers.
https://www.web3isgoinggreat.com
She did a better job than tech journalism or the FTC/SEC at mitigating the financial damage of crypto.
She doesn't game the system to go viral.
She doesn't sell hate.
5/N
Molly White and MKBHD deserve to be paid for their labor. The world is a better place because their criticisms and influence exist.
They should be able to earn a living on Mastodon.
If they can't, then it makes sense for them to exist online in other places too.
Confusion about the distinction between paying for labor, real commerce, and capitalism, leads many on Mastodon to reflexively hate anything or anyone that makes money. I think this is a self-defeating view.
@mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff
I dropped Twitter. FB is useless. I have no network on threads or bsky.
My Kickstarter for my last book was promoted only here, and was insanely successful.
You CAN make money on the fedi, through building a network built on sincerity and humor and self-awareness and generally not being a jerk.
Tradesmen like me existed for centuries before capitalism, and we will exist after it (hopefully) dies.
@mwl @mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff
Thank you for sharing this! And YEA for your success!
I think some of my own struggles might be from not organizing my accounts well. I use this account for my personal posts (which are few) and my photography account only for the photo postings.
But maybe I need to interact far more with the photo account?
I =REALLY= like what you said about being self-aware. That resonates.
@mancavgeek @mwl @mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff @kemonine I think nobody really thought on how Mastodon does work. They just switched over and used it like Twitter ignoring all the benefits of Mastodon and the Fediverse itself.
Many German Creators created an account, posted 1 or 2 toot's and never interacted with anyone again. Now the account are dead.
Most of them got back to Twitter complaining how bad it is, while using it.
It's such a shame IMO.
@mekkaokereke @nixCraft Very good points!
People getting paid for creating good content is fine, and can co-exist with people just vibing online.
When people say «open social media, not controlled by ad-tech, is great», but then also say people shouldn’t earn money here, they’re saying those creators, and people who want to see their stuff, don’t deserve those good things. So I like initiatives like @subclub, trying to make things better.
@mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff I’m not a famous YouTuber (yet LOL) but for fun I set up a Peertube account to see what would happen. For my last four videos I posted on Twitter linking to YouTube and also on Mastodon linking to Peertube. Here’s the view numbers:
Peertube 4, 4, 6, 8
YouTube 122, 638, 615, 148
I do have more followers on Twitter, so that may affect the numbers of course. I’m thinking of linking my next video to just the Peertube account just to see what happens. But those view numbers are why I’m still on Twitter and YouTube. I’d love to just be here, but at least for now I need to be in both places.
@selgart @mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff I have...some doubt that the YouTube numbers are entirely because of linking from Twitter, versus engagement local to YouTube (algorithm, subscribers, whatever).
Flipping the script should maybe give a better fix on what that impact looks like; linking both to the same, somewhat less so.
@mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff I think the issue of making money here is a bit more nuanced than that though. I would never say such creators shouldn't get paid, but I would certainly question if Mastodon itself -- or any social media -- should be the revenue source.
You don't make money sending emails; you don't make money off the post office; but most businesses still rely on those every single day. The issue isn't about whether they should be paid for their work, but about whether every single social space and every piece of communication really has to be monetized.
Social media used to be a place to keep up with your friends. Now it's mostly a shopping mall -- except for Mastodon. And I don't want to go back to being a 90s suburbia kid where the shopping mall is the only place to hang out! (:
"The issue isn't about whether they should be paid for their work, but about whether every single social space and every piece of communication really has to be monetized."
It is about whether they should be paid for their work. and nowhere in my thread did I suggest that Mastodon the platform should be paying them for that, or that every surface should be monetized. Most influencers don't rely on the platform to set up their sponsored deals.
1/N
I'm specifically addressing the dismissive framing of "Why aren't the influencers here? They just love arguments and hate and quote tweeting and surveillance advertising! They suck anyway! They're too lazy to figure out Mastodon, even though it's not that hard! I'm glad they're not here! Only us true Scotsmen really know how to social media! Everyone else is beneath us!"
When the answer is closer to:
"Social is my job. I can't pay my bills if I do that job here."
@mekkaokereke @nixCraft @molly0xfff
Just to agree that @molly0xfff is fantastic.
I've seen authors get roasted on here for promoting their own books.
I've seen server admins get insulted for suggesting moving to a subscription model rather than a donation model.
I haven't seen many (any?) examples of people being financially successful on Mastodon with a "here's how I did it!" tutorial with real numbers. I just see vague hand-wavings about "It's totally possible!" but when I ask for concrete examples, it gets real quiet. 🤷🏿♂️
@[email protected] @[email protected] Minimum wage in NYC is $16/hr. At 52 weeks working 40 hrs a week, that's ~35K a year. Is nixCraft making $35K a year on Mastodon? I hope so! But I doubt it. If they are, how are they doing that? What mechanism are they using to be paid for their labor and craftsmanship? Donations? Subscriptions? (And $35K is not enough to cover the average 1 bedroom rent in NYC. Let alone pay for food, health insurance, clothes, and utilities). People deserve to be paid for their labor.
And here comes @mwl with the receipts! 🧾 👍🏿
Summarized:
* Promote Book Kickstarter on Mastodon
* Write Book
* Promote Book on Mastodon
* Commerce is not Capitalism. Commerce preceded capitalism, and will exist after capitalism is gone.
https://io.mwl.io/@mwl/113176141779755889
Getting paid for your labor and creative works is winning. Being able to pay your bills, is winning.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] I dropped Twitter. FB is useless. I have no network on threads or bsky. My Kickstarter for my last book was promoted only here, and was insanely successful. You CAN make money on the fedi, through building a network built on sincerity and humor and self-awareness and generally not being a jerk. Tradesmen like me existed for centuries before capitalism, and we will exist after it (hopefully) dies.
@mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
If you want literal receipts: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mwlucas/run-your-own-mail-server
(The campaign is over, this isn't a solicitation.)
A bunch of that money goes to fulfillment, but still: promo'd entirely on the fedi.
@april @mekkaokereke @nixCraft My most shared post in the past was a variation of this.
I was astonished to still see it shared 180 days later! That was a few years back.
@mekkaokereke I definitely make money on Mastodon but it's tricky to quantify how much because I don't really track where people come from
but as an example this post (promoting a zine I'm selling) did extremely well on Mastodon https://social.jvns.ca/@b0rk/112536122255804144
As a totally made up number I'd guess at least 25% of sales come through Mastodon. In general my sense is that there are less people on Mastodon but the people who are here are way more "engaged".
Attached: 1 image WE DID IT. My new zine “How Git Works" is out now! You can get it here for $12: https://wizardzines.com/zines/git
@mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft I'm fairly financially successful with monetization on Mastodon, and do publish figures (but it's been a while since I've written an updated article)
YTD I've made €7,713.27 in gross revenue from the community, or between €500-1500 a month. That's across 3 channels, excluding GitHub Sponsors.
Last year was €8,497.03 from supporters, averaging €40 per transaction.
@mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
This year between freelance work, grants, and community support, I'm on track to make €68,000 or there about. (really depends on how far I progress through the FediMod FIRES grant from NLNet.
€68,000 is what I need to cover all my expenses, afaik.
@mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
Here's the 2023 report: https://medium.com/@thisismissem/2023-final-update-of-the-year-1e5d619dc756
@thisismissem @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
I hope you do realize that this is less than minimum wage? How much was that per hour of work?
Can you honestly say that this is "financial success" and that it could be emulated by others if one could make more money delivering food and biking around the city?
@raphael @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
I've only been tracking open-source contributions in terms of hours since the Q2 of this year. This year so far I have done 184 hours of work on open-source, of which 21.50 hours were funded separately and 8 hours of admin work.
I fully agree that the community support I receive is currently well below minimum wage, which is why I'm trying to increase that income.
I've also done a lot of freelance work to make ends meet, which balanced things out.
@raphael @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
As for is this "financial success", well, it's my full time job, I have no other employment besides the community funding, grants, and freelance work.
I don't work for any for-profit company. I meet my needs.
Note: I'm excluding from those numbers the grants and freelance work, which is the lions share of my income.
@thisismissem @raphael @april @nixCraft
Hot take:
People think that the Fediverse isn't safe(yet) because of slight differences between how you see the world, and Eugen sees the world, and Ro sees the world, and Oliphant sees the world, and Jaz sees the world, and Sierdy sees the world, and Hrefna sees the world, etc.
But the real reason the Fediverse is not safe and secure (yet), is that none of you can earn a stable and secure living working on Fediverse safety full time.🤷🏿♂️
1/N
@thisismissem @raphael @april @nixCraft
I am profoundly uninterested in giving my hot take nitpicking ideas on how any of you should be thinking about safety. And I don't think we want or need consensus.
I am deeply interested in how we change state to where you all can earn a living working on this stuff full-time, in a way that avoids the usual "money with downsides and baggage" like VC money, or becoming dependent on wealthy benefactors who may change their minds (eg Big Tech grants).
2/2
@mekkaokereke @raphael @april @nixCraft for full disclosure, my total revenue year to date, excluding open/future invoices is €44,960 with €4,210.61 in expenses.
So I have made a decent income for a developer based in Germany, where a less-experienced developer would make €40-45k, and experienced developers would be €60-90k.
That's including freelance contracts, bug bounties, grants, etc.
@mekkaokereke @raphael @april @nixCraft
But yeah, the Fediverse as a whole is extremely underfunded, and that only changes with people wanting to say “I value this and I want to fund it's existence”
I value the Fediverse and want to fund its existence. I don't want to simply set money on fire. What are my options?
My charity budget is completely allocated. My investment budget is not.
I think that's a critical challenge, if someone solves that without breaking the ideals, it would be beyond awesome.
@iwein @mekkaokereke @raphael @april @nixCraft
There isn't really ROI for stuff that is open-source, and that's where we really need the money, not in for-profit services.
@thisismissem @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
If you get for-profit services, they will be more than aligned with the sustainability of the open source part.
For example: I already pledged to give 20% of communick's profits to the underlying projects. The only "problem" is that communick will never be profitable for as long as it's competing with large instances (hachyderm/.world/universeodon) that have no intention/plan to become proper businesses.
@raphael @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
I'm pretty sure instances run not for profit aren't your enemy. Last I heard Masto.host was doing pretty okay. Their smallest plan is 3 times your smallest plan in cost.
It's easy as a business owner to blame others for the challenges you face in building & growing a business, it's a lot harder to raise to the challenges and reassess your decisions
@raphael @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
Also, fwiw, those larger instances have been funding development work. Nivenly (the organisation behind hachyderm) has funded several grants and has a security bug bounty program for the fediverse that's been quietly existing for most of the year.
They also give significant product feedback & test out new things.
@thisismissem @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
Organizations that provide funding for development provide a function that is orthogonal to bearing the operational costs of running an instance with many active users.
@raphael @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
And I'm saying that the instance you listed all help fund the development, not just operating their own instance.
e.g., earlier this year Nivenly paid me for fixing a security vulnerability in pixelfed which was CVE 9.9/10
Nivenly also provides me invaluable feedback on my work developing Mastodon. Not all beneficial relationships are financial, some are symbiotic where a developer can gain knowledge and feedback from people using tools everyday
@raphael @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
Nivenly has also filed several bugs raising things to our attention where moderator needs weren't being met; you've, as far as I can tell contributed exactly one issue to the project.
@thisismissem @raphael from my perspective you're in the same boat, even if you don't 100% agree and contributions are very different. I fund both dev and instance with a modest donation.
It's helpful also to make things investible and/or profitable (not the same thing). There's orders of magnitude more money available there.
Totally ok if that's not your problem to solve now, but somebody should step up to help. You can call the community, users, me, out on that. I hear you.
@thisismissem @iwein @mekkaokereke @april @nixCraft
Masto.host is managed hosting, the customer gets full control over the server. This is not the same as charging per account.
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