Holy shit, my wife just found this on the top of a container of collagen that we just bought from #Costco:
“By opening and using this product, you agree to be bound by our terms and conditions fully set forth at vitalproteins.com/tc, which include a mandatory arbitration agreement. If you do not agree to be bound, please return this product immediately.”
What. The. Actual. Fuck.
@fifilamoura Yeah calling Costco and complaining is definitely in the cards.
my wife, while reading the comments also idly noted that if you’ve already opened that label, you can still return it to Costco, but they can’t put it back up on the shelves. 😇
But I guess that would have to go to arbitration. 😂
@Wraithe @fifilamoura So... I notice that it says "by opening and using" — I'm not a lawyer, but I'd hope that in law, "and" doesn't mean "or", thus that you could open it, not use it, and not fall under that sketchy and dubious claim even in theory. 🤔
I'm with the "make it hurt to hurt the consumers" crowd. When I bought a moderately expensive item through amazon from a third-party seller and discovered that they had misrepresented the warranty on their amazon listing, I made them eat the return and made sure they knew why.
@BoydStephenSmithJr @cykonot @Wraithe I was saddened that in the discussion following the recent Disney case, many lawyers saw arbitration as preferable for their plaintiff clients. Their reasoning was that due to the backlogs in the court, getting paid off was more likely to be a "positive" outcome. (i.e. you wouldn't end up going bankrupt and dropping the case).
In their world it seemed like courts didn't exist for normal people.
@weebull @cykonot @Wraithe Yeah, well, I do think that arbitration is probably fine when both sides are willing. But, I don't believe any agreement to arbitration is _ever_ a fair contract term, since it can never be informed consent, as.it happens before the events of any dispute have even occurred!
I also think contract law is not a suitable basis for complex legal agreements triggered by "accepting" a product.
Our current legal system is pretty broken.
@cykonot @Wraithe I'd say the need to go somewhere (it doesn't even say it's the web or over the internet, but even if it did...) without including the text in the product should be by itself grounds to make it unenforceable.
It's already bad if someone spits out a questionable lengthy legalese text to go with a product or service. But *not* providing the text with the product...
@Wraithe Your Honor, the wrongful death case must be moved to arbitration. His wife once opened a tub of collagen powder in 2024.
--the Costco-Disney-Google Megacorp's lawyers 20 years from now, probably
@[email protected] @[email protected] In this case it's a Renault vehicle, but that second paragraph is not far-fetched at all, and is especially worrying when you consider that another manufacturer (Toyota) has had issues leading to deaths and tried to dodge blame as much as they could. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#Sudden_acceleration_in_Toyota_vehicles
@Wraithe I think the most concerning part about this is the fact that the terms (which you are essentially forced to accept because who thinks to look for an arbitration clause on a supplement) are linked in a website.
This means they can essentially retroactively change what you agreed to without your knowledge. Include the terms in the packaging or don't have them in the first place.
Planet Money on contracts: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1187543648
A fascinating look into the history of contracts. Originally, they were very specific things that only counted if both sides explicitly agreed to them. Then they were only if you took an actual action (open a package), and now they are legal if you don't take an action (click a button saying opt-out).
"How the economy fought the law and the economy won".
This is like some unholy combination of a magical seal and all the worst of legal BS and capitalism.
"by unwinding the seal you give your heart to Satan forever"
@hendric "Thank's for shelling out 50 bucks for our product. Now, relinquish all of your rights to this legally questionable lid because we've been sued in federal court, already."
I hope they don't put that shit on my Cap'n Crunch box
@hendric @futurebird @Wraithe There is an old XKCD on this theme: https://xkcd.com/501/
"By entering this room, you agree to forfeit your own soul rather than negotiate with the mortal residing therein."
Can confirm
@Dervishpi @futurebird @Wraithe For those who don't know:
"Disney wants to dismiss a wrongful death lawsuit because of a Disney Plus agreement. Disney wants to settle the dispute over a death at one of its restaurants outside of court."
https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/14/24220228/disney-wrongful-death-lawsuit-subscription-terms
@StryderNotavi @bady @futurebird @Wraithe
Here you go! I originally only had the information second hand, so glad to find confirmation:
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/14/nx-s1-5074830/disney-wrongful-death-lawsuit-disney
Are they owned by Disney???
*Caveat emptor*, Consumers Cringe...
(Lawyers smile)
@lispi314 @Wraithe to the latter point, indeed. You should not be able to preemptively waive your right to redress through the courts before something happens (you should still be able to waive it via out-of-court settlements, etc. after the fact).
To the former, there was a massive issue in the 90s of "shrinkwrap licenses", that are triggered by you opening the shrinkwrap, but with one small problem: they were inside the shrinkwrap and therefore not readable before purchase. US courts have ruled that particular method practically unenforceable due to that little issue of "you can't consent to an agreement you can't read beforehand" and "what counts as 'affirmative' consent?". But unfortunately that case law doesn't seem to bar shrinkwrap agreements on the outside of the wrapper (or readable through it), assuming they're sufficiently "conspicuous enough" to notice and read before removing the shrinkwrap.
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