I think one of the hard things about fedi, culturally, is that a whole lot (most??) of us are here because we are refusers of norms. And which norms and which levels of refusal differ.
So even if you’re at the 80th to 99th percentile of resistance to corporate social media OR mainstream party politics OR mainstream journalism OR cars OR the normalization of repeat covid infections, there will always be people popping up to tell you that by not being completely pure, you’re killing everyone.
And even if you’re SUPER PURE along one vector, you’re always going to miss some other one someone feels very motivated to discipline you about.
And this must be okay for some people! But I try very hard to live in a state of at least partial uncertainty, because the alternative is a real vulnerability to Going Bad without realizing it. The downside of that stance is that shit just doesn’t roll off. This is true for a lot of us, I think—maybe artists most of all, bc art requires sensitivity.
@kissane There’s a volume aspect to this too. I suspect I’m considerably more norm-core than the archetypal Mastodon user (along most axes but not all) — but because I don’t have a big account, this stuff just doesn’t come up for me.
Might be worth doing a qualitative study of pain points identified by big users of various platforms/whatever-we-call-them, and what those say about the culture. (Possibly this is already out there. Possibly you are even the person who would have written it… I’m out of my depth here) The median user of any service probably just isn’t going to experience the same things.
@kissane to achieve communities that value vulnerability safety can’t be derived from a perception of absolute “purity” but instead something akin to… Grace? Generosity? Empathy?
(All within reason, and the tolerance paradox, and all manner of human messiness)
I'm personally really happy when someone takes time out of their day to explain why something might be a problem and respectfully offers a solution.
But then there are those people who misread your message, or don't bother to contextualise it to another culture, and instead of checking did they understand correctly, they just jump forward to sending insulting pictures and tagging you for their friends, who just check the synopsis for the mob...
@kissane I think there are a couple of things...
Firstly, purity tests are an aspect of fascism, they're all about the individual subsuming and sacrificing themselves to an ideology or belief (usually that of the believer so it's making the other person subordinate and using the ideology as the lever to do so). It's not a coincidence that people who are judging others on these purist standards also see themselves as martyrs (and greatly underappreciated for their greatness). None of this is reasonable nor does it leave room for people to be human and imperfect. (We're all human and imperfect, even the people who believe themselves above all this.)
I mean, purity is a thing about fascism, sure, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, purity is a thing that also happens when you have to protect your identity against majority.
That's how you get those flamboyant gays of 1980s, or vegans of the same period, or stop-oil -activists today. You either make yourself a caricature by demanding rights, or you stay in the closet.
(I can only think how many gotchas Thunberg gets for owning a phone, or using clothes, electricity etc).
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I’m truly okay, my skin thickens back up fast! But I’m such a network nerd that whenever I see problems I start thinking about them in network-wide terms.
@kissane
This may be the Mastodon subcultural instance (ha!) of a more general phenomena of people being over-the-top intolerant on the internet. Interesting that you should say this just after I read this piece from yesterday by the amazing columnist for the Irish Times, Laura Kennedy. She was talking about the brigading of a couple girls doing a TikTok dance video.
"Online, things are different. We lose that rational sense of our own irrelevance and we can become thoughtless, credulous babies, quicker to judge and rage and dismiss.”
@kissane the problem with zealots... You can’t let ‘em get to you. If you post online, you’re opening yourself up to attack.
It’s a fun thought experiment tho. You either silo yourself with other like-minded people and defederate, or stay open and exposed. Maybe there’s a balance, maybe there are better controls we could implement.
I’m not sure anyone’s really treating the “fediverse” as a “product” outside of Meta. It’s all individual instances and client software.
people are messy.
@kissane kicking the can down the road to a solution - here's my 2¢:
As a regular vegan you learn to moderate expectations. Same again as a regular Linux user. Then there's regular cycling, sailing, hiking, gardening, eco-living, …
Eventually self preservation kicks in because a fully fledged extremist can establish a hate group with ease. And a hater can nitpick over the most mundane problems.
A modicum of reality becomes a life vest in a sea of perfectionism.
If nobody I know picks up a better way of living through me, then why would I strain myself to be the nth level guru? I'm not seen as a role model in any of my departures from the norm. I get happy to normalise until further notice. Yet, I work my butt off within the establishment of a better way.
@kissane that resonates. I had multiple people here tell me to kill myself for having a slightly different opinion.
Eventually I found out it is best to stay silent, or block, instead of grappling with issues publicly.
I guess a significant portion of humans are just jerks, and even if you can learn something from them to improve yourself, it's not worth the psychological damage.
After introducing some very serious filtering habits, I feel exposed to mostly awesome people I even share with.
@kissane
Like the man said - you need to love your enemies and forgive those who transgress against you.
(And remember, you don't do it to make them feel better - you do it to rid yourself of carrying the poisonous burden of grudges)
@kissane Sort of tangentially related - have you ever come across Mark O'Connell's documentary about ambivalence? It's good.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007k73
The supporting web page is good too, and has a thing about Dr Monica Gagliano's pea experiment, which is extraordinary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/wBm3GwsRd8l9p4qDB4Hvq9/why-it-s-strong-to-be-ambivalent
And even if you’re SUPER PURE along one vector, you’re always going to miss some other one someone feels very motivated to discipline you about.
Exactly.
For example, I like cars. I don't want to have to drive everywhere every day, but I enjoy driving, I want to when it makes sense, I want to own one, I want to not catch repeated COVID infections on a slow bus full of maskless people (interesting how those two intersect), and can't cycle due to disability. I always give cyclists room, park responsibly, walk if I can, etc., and I want to be able to take a train long distance without needing to drive (and cheaper, less pollution and more COVID-free air than a plane...), and would if it was possible in the US...
Generally I've found most people are tolerant of reasonable differences of opinion, but I have absolutely still run into a few ideological extremists who act like I want the entire world to be Houston or something. Have to say, I've never seen an antivaxxer/antimasker here though.
@kissane I agree with that And each of us also encounters others who make it clear that the norm refusal we care about isn't, as far as they're concerned, worth caring about. Sometimes it's said explicitly; sometimes it's implicit but still apparent in what they say.
That can be stressful too, with enough scale and repetition. It's not something I think can be eliminated in wide discussions, for various reasons, but it's worth remembering (esp. when my own posts might heighten that feeling).
Agree with this but would also add – moral purity (good vs. evil dichotomous thinking) is a trait of White/European culture.
There’s a great book called “White Bound” by Matthew Hughey, who spent a year in embedded in both a White antiracist organization and a White supremacist group. Members of *both* groups (White antiracists and neo-nazis) were very preoccupied with demonstrating ideological purity to their group’s mission.
That makes sense to me. It’s weird, White culture is very individualistic/competitive, but it also values conformity/purity.
thanks for sharing @kissane
one perspective that i find really helpful is chatacterised by:
"if something is worth doing, it's worth doing half arsed"
trying, and valuing trying, and doing some is so important.
every effort, every hope, every positive step is a thing.
learning and trying to be who you (i, we) want to be, whilst loving and nurturing the slips and stumbles on the way
never let the impossibility of idealised perfection stop us from trying to get on okay, compromising as we go
@kissane Well said!
Prioritization of multiple issues can polarize on a single issue that people agree on.
On a single issue, Alice and Bob might agree completely with one another. But then...there might be 9 other issues that Bob believes are relatively more important.
Now suddenly, there seems to be a big gap between Alice and Bob on that original issue.
That's well put -- and often folks _have_ of course thought about the tradeoffs they themselves have chosen, but get "explained to" by others.
IME, many nerdy communities (especially male-dominated ones) have similar refusal of norms cultures, so for folks who've been part of such communities it may feel easier to tolerate or even normal, but it can be very offputting.
I think a culture of generosity in how we approach each other is a useful thing for any fedi community to nourish.
@kissane I think part of it is a tendency to increase the stakes/contrast between you and your opponent while repeating your strongest arguments that happens during a disagreement.
You’ve explained yourself but your opponent Doesn’t Get It which means they are just dismissing the consequences so you’ve got to make them clearer to them.
It’s a bad habit and I know I do it, too, as well as jumping into a new conversation already at that higher level. That’s when you need to walk away.
@kissane "...there will always be people popping up to tell you that by not being completely pure, you’re killing everyone."
And the correct response to that is, "Well I goddamn hope so! People suck."
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