Kyle
Craig HockenberryWhen you start seeking rent on the livelihood of artists, I don’t think you get to claim you work at the intersection of Technology and Liberal Arts anymore.
https://news.patreon.com/articles/understanding-apple-requirements-for-patreon
donutage (Bill Cole)
Bryson@chockenberry operating a toll booth is work, right? ;)
Chris Hisle@chockenberry it's what happens when you own the real estate at the corner and can start charging rent
adamrice@chockenberry I wonder if Paypal, Venmo, and the like will be next.
Keir@chockenberry sadly I feel that it's been a long time since they were at that intersection.
Marty@chockenberry I get that Apple provides a service with the app store and whatnot, but I will never, ever understand why they feel entitled to a cut of subscriptions that they literally do nothing to furnish or support.
Their platform is alive (and thriving) because people choose to develop for it. They make money hand over fist from hardware sales. Why isn't that enough?
@martincrownover Year-over-year revenue growth is from services and it's good for the stock price.
For some people in the organization, stockholders are more important than artists.
amonduin@martincrownover @chockenberry they should try selling an iPhone without any 3rd party apps alongside one with third party apps and see how many they sell. Apple should then be required to distribute a percentage of the profits from the improvement in sales to developers for enabling those sales. /s
Daniel@martincrownover @chockenberry because they make the computers where the transaction happens
FreediverX@danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry
OK, so since the cell phone companies own the networks on which most of those transactions happen, will Apple be paying them a commission as well?
30% seems fair.
@freediverx @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry I think people don't realize how absurd it would end up getting if this way of thinking took hold. TSMC's IP is used, so they should get a cut, so is ARMs, so is some of Qualcomms, then we have the internet carriers, we could even move onto the electrical grid. After all without electricity non of these transactions could take place.
Darkpaw@amonduin @freediverx @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry I don't think that's how it works.
Apple has agreements with TSMC, ARM, Qualcomm etc. to pay what it says in those contracts, and nothing more. Just as Apple has an agreement with a data center to pay them for their services and nothing more, that data center has an agreement with their electricity company. And so on...
An iOS developer agrees to a contract with Apple, and those terms mean the developer gives Apple a cut.
@darkpaw @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry
Sure, but I think the broader conversation is about the fairness of those agreements and how Apple’s justification for extracting 30% of all commerce on their platform could easily be used as an argument by others against Apple, putting aside present legal contracts.
Sure, but I think the broader conversation is about the fairness of those agreements and how Apple’s justification for extracting 30% of all commerce on their platform could easily be used as an argument by others against Apple, putting aside present legal contracts.
@freediverx @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry I was just pointing out that what @amonduin suggested was not possible because there are gaps in the chain caused by other contracts.
@darkpaw @amonduin @freediverx @danielinoa @chockenberry Nobody is disputing that that is what the agreement (currently) is. They are disputing whether or not it is justified or fair.
MarkV@darkpaw @amonduin @freediverx @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry If I remember well, Qualcomm’s price to Apple was such that Apple has to pay a percentage of the price of the device that the modem chip is used in, and Apple sued them for price gouging 🤷♂️😂
@markv @darkpaw @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry
Exactly. Apple's bitter legal fight with Qualcomm was precisely over the same argument in reverse. They argue that the terms they agreed to with Qualcomm are unreasonable, while the similar terms they demand from developers is perfectly valid and fair.
Exactly. Apple's bitter legal fight with Qualcomm was precisely over the same argument in reverse. They argue that the terms they agreed to with Qualcomm are unreasonable, while the similar terms they demand from developers is perfectly valid and fair.
@freediverx @markv @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry I have no opinion on the fairness or otherwise of the cut Apple wants. I was literally just pointing out that the chain of payments cannot be as was suggested. That's all.
@darkpaw @freediverx @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry I work in pricing (for chemicals, not electronics). I don’t think there’s any legal or theoretical reason why it couldn’t work that way. Apple’s pricing strategy to developers is Value-Based Pricing (the more money you make, the more you pay), while Apple’s suppliers are doing cost-plus pricing (a fixed price based on cost to produce).
@darkpaw @freediverx @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry IMHO, the only real reasons why Apple suppliers can’t impose the same kind of value extraction on Apple as Apple does on developers are negotiating power, alternatives, and switching barriers.
TSMC could try to ask a percentage of device price if they wanted to, like Qualcomm did. But Apple is a behemoth and has massive negotiating power, so their procurement side is able to reject terms while developers have no choice.
@darkpaw @freediverx @amonduin @danielinoa @martincrownover @chockenberry Apple is acting as if they’re the only ones in the value chain adding any value. Everyone upstream is treated as a commodity supplier and squeezed (“Put on your big boy pants” - see GTAT lawsuit), and everyone downstream is treated as a platform freeloader and has to pay a tax for access to the loyal customer base. They may be drinking a bit too much of their own koolaid here.
Isocat now → @@martincrownover @chockenberry "Enough" is not a feature of late-stage capitalism; it is considered a bug.
Hunter King@chockenberry a little sympathy for Apple, please. Their income is only just barely over 100 billion per year.
shinypb@chockenberry Actual video footage of Apple working at the intersection of Technology and Liberal Arts
André@chockenberry that sucks
Cory Birdsong@chockenberry “Apple’s fee will not impact your existing members. It will only affect new memberships purchased in the iOS app from November onward.”
How much money could Apple possibly make from this narrow of a slice?
@chockenberry easy. Stop using the app and hit Apple in the wallet.
Martin Seeger@MaybeMyMonkeys @chockenberry You can use the app, but make all new subscriptions from a browser. Not a cent goes to Apple that way. I do that all the time.
@masek @MaybeMyMonkeys Yeah, the thing that sucks from the creator side is that you can't recommend that to people. There can be no mention of alternate payment methods in the App Store.
@chockenberry @MaybeMyMonkeys If you address your European Union patreons, Apple can’t do shit. Apple has been slapped before for trying to discourage that.
So start a post “For my European patrons”. Describe it in detail.
If some U.S. patreons reads it too, it’s not your fault.
wrath0110@MaybeMyMonkeys @chockenberry Stop buying iPhones and hit them in the crotch.
2xfoI can see how that works for rent seeking technologists, but why should artists bother coming to this intersection 🤔
Matt Pritchett
Arne Visscher@chockenberry Apple really want to get slapped by some more EU fines don't they?
Mister Moo 🐮@chockenberry Now they stand at the intersection of Anticompetitive Street and Greed Way.
Starraven@chockenberry
Ko-fi it is, then.
Ko-fi it is, then.
Kaveh@chockenberry I feel like Patreon should let Apple try to kick it out of the App Store. There's no way this ends well for Apple.
Craig Grannell@chockenberry They work there still. The difference now is Apple’s erected a massive toll booth on the intersection.
@chockenberry ok, can we just implement (micro)transactions in activitypub?
i'm still not sure we can make federated social media work but this would be perfect sales platform... if every artist/seller/driver/hotel could run their own federated site and be searchable and bookable by anyone using the same platform/protocol (same as mastodon profiles and posts but shops and products) we wouldn't need patreon/amazon/uber/airbnb...
edit: i get this is a different problem but it made me think
kcǃ
Bill Seitz@chockenberry hey that Crush ad is just yet-more-accurate now
@chockenberry did someone say "proletarianization of the petty bourgeoisie"?
europlus 
@chockenberry @arroz strong agree, this is such a dick move by Apple.
draeath@chockenberry fuck Patreon, but fuck Apple about 5x more.
sandywb14
Andrea De Pirro@chockenberry living the Apple’s fall from grace in real time is so sad 😢