mr. intarwebsJun 29, 2024
Ernie Smith
The irony is not lost on me that the Internet Archive went out of its way to acquire the physical versions of millions of books and loan them out carefully and in a limited way, and is facing a near-extinction-level event over it, while for-profit and VC-backed companies are just stealing people’s content and making up excuses to validate the bad behavior.
Jun 28, 2024 at 8:45pmWeb
Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024

@ernie while I totally agree from a moral pint of view, IA knew they were flaunting rules and got sloppy / arrogant about it. While the copyright system BADLY needs reform IA brought this world of pain onto themselves knowing that system very well and should have known better.

For me it raises a pressing matter of who archives the archive..? We need redundancy of such important services to protect them against catastrophe be that technological or bureaucratic.

Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024
@ernie what IA were doing may have been morally right but we all know morality doesn’t come into copyright law 😒
Show threadErnie SmithJun 28, 2024
@wiredfire I think IA pushed the edges of the program a little too hard during the pandemic but the idea of checking out digital forms of physical books is how things should work. It’s infuriating that it does not
Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024
@ernie absolutely, it’s maddening. In a similar way I have a stack of physical books but I just don’t read them, I always pick up the Kobo instead. There is no legal route for me to simply format-shift them to digital. Of course there are plenty of routes I could go to furnish myself with digital copies, but still.
Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024
@ernie There was a service that tried to do this for a while, you had to write a message in the book and send photo as evidence and it used that to determine one book = one ebook. Naturally publishers hated this idea and the whole thing fell apart fairly quickly 😠
Show threadJessamynJun 28, 2024
@wiredfire @ernie I have never heard of that "write a message in the book to prove ownership" thing and as a librarian who has also worked at Open Library, I am very curious, Do you remember what it was called?
Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024

@jessamyn @ernie it was called “Shelfie”. All gone and burried now but this is an article that touches on how it worked from the end user point of view:

https://time.com/4146187/shelfie-app-free-ebooks/

How to Turn Your Paper Books Into (Free) E-books and Audio Books

A new app doubles as a social media platform for the book-obsessed

Time
Show threadJessamynJun 28, 2024
@wiredfire @ernie Thank you!
Show threadWiredfireJun 28, 2024
@jessamyn @ernie you’re welcome! ☺️
Show threadDana McFarland 🍁 🔥🐎Jun 30, 2024
@wiredfire @jessamyn @ernie I remember some mystification and discussion about names on the tp verso when examples of these started surfacing as discards. There were other apps that worked the same way.
https://www.adweek.com/galleycat/take-a-shelfie-to-get-a-free-ebook-version-of-any-print-book-you-own
Take a ‘Shelfie’ to Get a Free eBook Version of Any Print Book You Own

Want an eBook version of a book that you own in print? Check out bitlit, a new app that will help connect you with an eBook if you can prove that you own the print edition. With the app, you take a “shelfie” of your book shelf. The app will use that photo to see if any of the books ...

Show threadDana McFarland 🍁 🔥🐎Jun 30, 2024
@wiredfire @jessamyn @ernie iirc there was also at least one case of a library reporting that they had this strange form of vandalism occur, where a name would be found on the tp verso.
That would seem not very well thought through.
Show threadRiley S. FaelanAug 6, 2024

@wiredfire The moral of the story is, it's immoral to try and jump through stupid hoops in order to make the copyright hoarders happy. The copyright hoarders will never be made happy, and they will use not being happy as a pretext for hurting the public in immoral ways.

The moral thing to do is for a library to make copies to everybody who wants one.

@ernie

Show threadWiredfireAug 6, 2024

@riley @ernie no argument there, I don't believe I've ever philosophically disagreed with what IA did. I think it was shortsighted continue the scheme after covid lockdowns. For me the moral is pissing off copyright holders when you operate legitimately (unlike places like Libgen) is not the way to approach copyright change.

IA had the moral high ground but that didn't help in court. We can all agree on the ethics but the law disagres with us, and really needs change bit this wasn't the way.

Show threadRiley S. FaelanAug 6, 2024

@wiredfire Well, if you understand why the system is abusive, why call it "legitimate"? Why justify it?

@ernie

Show threadWiredfireAug 6, 2024
@riley @ernie I mean legitimate in the legal sense not moral which I've already been fairly clear on the distinction of
Show threadmike805Aug 6, 2024

@wiredfire @ernie Libgen is doing alright.

Piracy is the only tool the public has to restrain copyright holders' behavior.

Show threadRiley S. FaelanJun 28, 2024

@wiredfire *hiss*! *boo*!

You're pretending that the "rules" are some sort of objective, knowable, and respectable thing? *hiss*!

​

@ernie

Show threadNiniAug 6, 2024
@wiredfire @ernie How do you go about moving IA to a more federated or at least less centralised system? Figure the data for all of the archives must be into the high end of the petabyte range at this point.
Show threadthe Amygdalai LamaJun 28, 2024
@ernie @mitch
.
I mean it’s so much easier than physically burning libraries - but the work has never deterred them anyway. I’ve always known my blog and most of my speech was going to disappear the minute the power went out. Think of the trees we’ve saved. ❤️🙄
Show threadFrances LarinaJun 28, 2024

@ernie

That's not irony. It's capitalism and corruption. It's a system that at its core does not work for the people.

Show threadRob HooftJun 28, 2024
@ernie some organizations make enough money by violating the law that they can sue everyone else to extinction.
Show threadLynn McAlister UE  Jun 28, 2024
@ernie If something is done with the intention of making things better for everyone, it's a crime. If something is done to make a profit, despite damaging everyone, it's considered virtuous.
Show threadCainmark Does Not Comply 🚲Jun 29, 2024

@lmgenealogy @ernie

I really dislike that this seems very accurate.

Show threadLynn McAlister UE  Jun 29, 2024
@cainmark @ernie Me too, and I hate it that it seems to be so impossible to overcome it.
Show threadCainmark Does Not Comply 🚲Jun 29, 2024

@lmgenealogy @ernie

Especially when jobs that help people pay so little or demand all of the time.

Show threadJonathan Kamens 86 47Jun 28, 2024
@ernie That's what they started out doing. And if they had kept doing that, they probably never would have been sued, or if they were, there's a good chance they would have won.
But then they started entering into agreements with libraries all over the country: let us integrate with your online card catalog, and then we can let people check out one digital copy of any book your currently have on your shelves. Qualitatively different, much more questionable in terms of copyright law.
(continued)
Show threadJonathan Kamens 86 47Jun 28, 2024
@ernie And then COVID happened and they removed all borrowing limits and let anyone check out any book, infinite copies. And that's when the publishers noped out, decided they had gone too far, and sued.
What they did during COVID was clearly theft and clearly deprived authors of income. There was no ambiguity. It was a shitty, stupid overstep.
They got sued and established a shitty precedent because they went too far and pissed off the publishers too much. It was dumb.
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024

@jik It wasn’t a shitty, stupid overstep. It was a well-intentioned overstep at a time when people couldn’t go to the library.

Was the result damaging and ultimately out of bounds? Yes. But I absolutely draw the line at calling it dumb. The publishers moved out of bounds too here—they didn’t have to go after the whole thing. That was their choice.

Let us not lose context here.

Show threadJonathan Kamens 86 47Jun 29, 2024
@ernie Ah, so now we're moving the goalposts.
You knew when you posted your first post above what IA _actually_ did, but you chose to describe it inaccurately so you could make IA look better and the corporations who sued them look worse than actually justified by the circumstances?
And then when called out on it, you came back with "well ok, it actually wasn't as bad as I said, but lord, it wasn't good."
Yeah, no.
I don't waste my time here with people who pull shit like this.
*plonk*,,
Show threadScott D. Strader 😐Jun 29, 2024
@ernie omg I hate to be the lazy non-reseacher, but... I knew of the issue with loaning books, but does "a near-extinction-level event" mean the entire site is under threat?!
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024
@sstrader When you have to pay massive legal bills for a long-running case, it doesn’t do amazing things for your financial situation.
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024

@sstrader I think this NYT story really does a great job of highlighting just how dangerous this has all been for the archive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/internet-archive-emergency-lending-library.html

The Case of the Internet Archive vs. Book Publishers

In the pandemic emergency, Brewster Kahle’s Internet Archive freely lent out digital scans of its library. Publishers sued. Owning a book means something different now.

The New York Times
Show threadScott D. Strader 😐Jun 29, 2024

@ernie ahhhhh, duh. <he says as he goes to up his monthly donation>. Internet Archive is one of the few sites from the Halcyon days of early tech optimism that truly has lived up to what we all dreamt of.

Goddamn these corporations

Show threadJi FuJun 29, 2024
@ernie both of these are acceptable. Intellectual "property" doesn't exist. You can't steal an idea.
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024
@Fu Copyright law would disagree with you
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024

@Fu I think copyright law is super-broken, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not quite as far as intellectual property not existing.

I think both of these things cause people to be disillusioned by copyright law

Show threadJi FuJul 4, 2024
@ernie laws are shit
Show threadJörg SeidelJun 29, 2024
@ernie
You have to understand that. The Internet Archive is evil. Worse, it's non-profit.
@jbz
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Jun 29, 2024
@ernie why is it extinction-level?
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024

@hipsterelectron

“Near extinction-level”

1) The proposed fines in the case ($150,000 per title) would have bankrupted the organization, though it was eventually narrowed down to 127 titles
2) Legal filings are expensive
3) They’ve had to remove a lot of content already

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Jun 29, 2024
@ernie didn't realize the fines, thanks a ton
Show threadSci-Fi GirlJun 29, 2024

@ernie @hipsterelectron

Are the archives of internet pages in danger too? (Genuinely wondering.)

Show threadAdlangxJun 29, 2024
@ernie we will just pirate them. It will be fine.
Show thread🅱🅻🆄🅴🅱️Jun 29, 2024

@ernie

That's because the truth has always been and always will be.

Money = Power

Show threadTricot FeelyaJun 29, 2024
@ernie archive.org has really tightened its access policy. To read many works now you have to be certified vision disabled.
Show threadECHAEAJun 29, 2024
@ernie
When it's for profit, it's OK 🤷‍♂️
Show threadwraptileJun 29, 2024
@ernie copyright has been a broken system since the very inception.
Show threadRobertJun 29, 2024
@ernie The lesson is: Instead of investing donations into purchasing copies, they should have invested it into legal, like most companies seem to do
Show threadPrastowo Yustinus Jun 29, 2024
@ernie Not problem, use Anna archive instead, stop use internet archive for reading books because site admin and team will remove stuff if received message from stingy companies who want to destroy old stuff for profit.

https://annas-archive.org/
Anna’s Archive: LibGen (Library Genesis), Sci-Hub, Z-Library in one place - Anna’s Archive

The world’s largest open-source open-data library. Mirrors Sci-Hub, Library Genesis, Z-Library, and more.

Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024
@prastow So basically use an archive that doesn’t respect copyright law at all instead of one that is at least trying to show some respect to copyright
Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024
@prastow I get it. But it doesn’t feel like an amazing set of options right there.
Show threadMoth Aug 6, 2024
@ernie @prastow That's exactly the thing, though. The copyright system is inherently broken. Systems that are inherently broken and corrupt can only be circumvented by crime. It's why piracy will ALWAYS be connected with communities that are not necessarily "illegal" (Preservation, retro gaming, FOSS).
Show threadDan O'NeillJun 29, 2024

@ernie back in the early 2000's MP3.com paid for physical CD's, made digital copies available to stream, but only if you could prove via a sophisticated hashing algorithm that you had your own physical copy at your end. The security of the "lending" didn't matter, it was the copying and subsequent distribution.

One has to lobby Congress to change Copyright law. Is Lawrence Lessig writing anything about IA's position?

Show threadErnie SmithJun 29, 2024

@dkoneill One gets the feeling that trying to convince legislators of the importance of this would be immensely fraught in part because the advocacy groups are much more established on the copyright-holders’ sides.

I was just thinking about the MP3.com case. The fact that isn’t how copyright law works is wrong; it was clearly an idea ahead of its time.

Show threadRob McKennaJun 29, 2024
@ernie but they are making profits silly! Delivering value for shareholders! Totally different to providing a useful service for not money.
Show threadbitsavers.orgJun 29, 2024

@ernie

We also know now what the real motivation behind the Google Books project was. To provide a training base for their AI

Show threadArchnemysisJun 29, 2024
@ernie ok, but internet archive did not buy the rights to electronically distribute those books, no matter how careful or limited that electronic distribution is. ALL they bought was the paper someone else’s work was printed on. That someone else has a right to determine how their work is distributed.
Show threadLou KatzJun 29, 2024
@ernie Working as intended
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 30, 2024
@ernie except the former one did loan more copies than they had and the latter one isn't stealing because if that was copyright infringement, we'd all be perpetual #DebtPeons starting in Kindergrdtten or Elementary school...
GitHub Copilot is not infringing your copyright

Felix Reda
Show threadAlexandre Oliva (moved to @[email protected])Jun 30, 2024
your post gave me the following idea:
the archive should train some LLM on all of those books, and then publish the trained model.
who'd want to borrow the books under DRM if they can have a locally-running LLM that can search, summarize or even "write" them on demand?
crossing these rays would pit the LLM giants against the book MAFIAA. in such a fight, we should all be rooting for the fight, but if it brings LLM giants to defend the Internet Archive, that could be good?
cc: @@brewsterkahle