raederle
🌈 vanta rainbow black 🌈the allegory of the nazi bar
Stefan Bohacek@vantablack Great story. When I finally decided to fully abandon Twitter, I unfollowed everyone, cleared my profile picture, and set my bio to "Twitter is a Nazi bar now." and a link to an article on upworthy.com with this thread.
Ivan Sagalaev 
@vantablack the golden classic!
Bean Club 
@vantablack Thank you! Was thinking about this a week or so ago but too lazy to look for it
slotrak@vantablack
No allegory, just fact.
No allegory, just fact.
CyFake story. That's not how Nazis operate. It is how they say you operate though.
pollinator stan
Feygele Ⓐ Ⓥ🏳️⚧️🍉
levampyre
Jennifer Moore 😷That comment seems to me odd and somewhat hostile. How did you mean it? Was there something you wanted to explain or accomplish?
I feel like that narrative helps Nazis. The real Nazi will purchase the bar, and you'll find a new bartender one day who seems polite. Then the bartender starts kicking other people out for attempting to corrupt the bar with degeneracy. You have to nip it in the bud, he says. That Black lover might have seemed polite, but if we tolerate him then he'll bring all his friends, driving everyone else away with their Black barbarism, and next thing you know the bar is like that one photo from Nigeria. (He says.)
𝔼𝕘𝕘@cy and the moment anyone says anything close to "that black lover" and isn't then thrown out, you get the fuck up leave and never go back. It ain't difficult, yo.
The difference here is you can't exactly not go back to the bar you run. Nip it in the bud
✨buff dog himbo✨@egg_ @cy wtf? So all nazis have the kind of purchasing power that they just fucking own the bar lol?? No. It's like it is in the meme more often than in your comment, which I guess it can be sometimes, I've just never seen it.
More often than any, the bar was a normie bar to begin with, not a crustpunk bar, & became a nazi bar by a) tolerating nazis and b) kicking out anybody who made the nazis feel unwelcome or confronted them in any way.
So supposing a Nazi _did_ buy the bar, and install a Nazi-friendly bartender.
How are you thinking it would help them that this other story exists? Or to put it another way, what would be different for a Nazi who'd read the story?
E.g. is it that you think it would "give them ideas"?
Is it more like, you think they might need or use someone else's story like this in order to "justify" kicking out the people they don't like?
Their tactics to turn people against minorities involve demonizing nice people, saying they're nice now, but just you wait. Being uncritical of an authority (the bartender) while accepting that good people are bad when the right labels are applied puts you closer to adopting their bullying, silencing tactics. Fascists have always depended on great power and wealth to put themselves at an unfair advantage. They're too craven and cowardly to show their true colors when they don't have control.
I mean sure, punch the Nazi walking around dressed in Nazi parephernalia, but the Nazi you have to worry about is the one dressed in normal clothes, saying he just wants to fight against evil by funding the police, so give him your vote if you don't want the criminals to win.
I mean sure, punch the Nazi walking around dressed in Nazi parephernalia, but the Nazi you have to worry about is the one dressed in normal clothes, saying he just wants to fight against evil by funding the police, so give him your vote if you don't want the criminals to win.
@cy Well, you also have to worry about the dressed-up Nazi. He's the one who will march with torches, hit you up and set your house on fire, esp. when you're a minority or political opponent that just wants to live. They ALREADY do this NOW while it's illegal. Sure, less obvious Nazis work on policies declaring all that domestic violence legal. But the obvious ones are the ones actually killing you, actually pushing you into the chambers. You have to very much worry about them.
@unchartedworlds
@unchartedworlds
"accepting that good people are bad when the right labels are applied" is not a good idea for sure. That isn't what's being recommended in the story, though.
Even though an obvious element of the story is the kicking-out, an equally important element is that the bartender was able to recognise from experience the Nazi symbols the bloke was wearing, which the narrator hadn't spotted.
And yes, the narrator does take the bartender's word for that on this occasion. But the implication of the way it's told is that the narrator _could_ have seen what the bartender saw, if they'd looked at the right time.
So the implicit invitation of the story isn't "always take the word of bartenders about who is a bad person". It's "develop your own discernment so that you too can spot Nazis early on, before they get settled in".
I guess I just have too much faith in humanity. Nazis don't get settled in, unless they have wealthy backers rigging things in their favor. Without that power imbalance, people... don't like them, and never like them.
fabiosantoscode@cy @unchartedworlds a consistent disregard for the well being of the working class really helps, too. When times are tough for long enough, people start believing their bullshit. They say "I don't like him but" about fascists, but they vote all the same.
This is what's happening in Portugal. Austerity has destroyed people's living conditions. Our (almost) 2-party system fixes nothing of it. The fascists will fix nothing either, but they're happy to capitalise on the discontent to get voters.
I'd go so far as to say fascists themselves push policies of Austerity. You think Thatcher was anything less than a Nazi? Maybe I'm being too harsh on these politicians "accidentally" robbing us blind, but fascists know full well that economic unrest is the key to cementing their control. So I think the fascists you see attracting voters are the carrot, and the fascists you don't see causing Austerity are the stick.
CC: @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected]
@cy @unchartedworlds austerity was enforced by the IMF and the unelected European commission. Not sure if fascism or imperialism.
Our prime minister at the time is likely a fascist but he couldn't have stopped it or caused it. He just made it worse lol, and made fun of my people's complaints. Called us whiny.
So, in your view, is it that there wouldn't have been any risk in allowing the first Nazi to stay and buy drinks, because the other patrons wouldn't have liked him anyway, and that would be enough to discourage the first Nazi from coming back with his Nazi friends? I.e. people's general dislike of Nazis would mean there was really no need to set an _explicit_ boundary of Nazis not being welcome there?
My view is that the scenario is unrealistic because the first Nazi would never have the guts to show up. By the time people are coming into your bar with Black Sun tattoos, the Nazis have already been there for a long time.
I mean yes, Nazis will occasionaly walk into the bar to provoke you, to stoke the persecution complex of them and their buddies. It is possible but just not very important. We should focus on other things to protect ourselves from Nazis, such as neighborhood engagement, and debt forgiveness. Like voiding commercial leases, so that a bar can be run by the bartender, not some shady filthy rich dude who rents out all property in the nearest 50 miles.
I mean yes, Nazis will occasionaly walk into the bar to provoke you, to stoke the persecution complex of them and their buddies. It is possible but just not very important. We should focus on other things to protect ourselves from Nazis, such as neighborhood engagement, and debt forgiveness. Like voiding commercial leases, so that a bar can be run by the bartender, not some shady filthy rich dude who rents out all property in the nearest 50 miles.
"Unrealistic"? Maybe it's just that you haven't personally experienced that kind of thing?
Here's another discussion of that same story. See e.g. the comment about the tattoo artist, and the examples of bars changing clientele:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TalesFromYourServer/comments/hsiisw/kicking_a_nazi_out_as_soon_as_they_walk_in/
Yeah I can see tattoo artists getting trouble for doing Nazi tattoos. The "motorcycle bar" guy says "you are either a place that has zero fucking tolerance for white supremacists, or you are full of fucking nazi bikers," but wouldn't the zero tolerance policy cause that? Zero tolerance is a good idea I mean, but the reason should be "Because they're Nazis," not "Because we'd get overrun with Nazis."
Why are all those bikers Nazis anyway?
Why are all those bikers Nazis anyway?
If you think zero tolerance for white supremacists is a good idea, does that mean you agree that the bartender in the story handled the situation basically correctly? Is it that you're disagreeing with some of how they explained their reasoning, but you think they were right not to let the Nazi-symbols person stay and buy drinks?
That Nazi symbols person is a sort of clown. They want to be kicked out, so they can act like the bartender is persecuting them. They want people to hate and revile the bartender if he doesn't, so you'll all leave in disgust. It's overall better to kick them out before they start escalating, but to do so with compassion, rather than treat them like a monster. Healthy boundaries, and such.
But it really doesn't matter. The whole scenario is a distraction from the real fascist threat. I couldn't care less if Nazi bikers think they can take over my bar, because SCOTUS ruled that the Chevron corporation don't have to follow the law. That's where fascists are really fucking us over. When people get too wealthy, they pay fascists to capture places of authority, so that they can be the ones kicking us out. Otherwise, fascism just isn't that much of a threat.
But it really doesn't matter. The whole scenario is a distraction from the real fascist threat. I couldn't care less if Nazi bikers think they can take over my bar, because SCOTUS ruled that the Chevron corporation don't have to follow the law. That's where fascists are really fucking us over. When people get too wealthy, they pay fascists to capture places of authority, so that they can be the ones kicking us out. Otherwise, fascism just isn't that much of a threat.
So the "scenario is unrealistic because the first Nazi would never have the guts to show up" except also they "want to be kicked out, so they can act like the bartender is persecuting them". And "the Nazi you have to worry about is the one dressed in normal clothes", & Chevron means you "couldn't care less", but it's still "overall better to kick them out before they start escalating". And "sure, punch the Nazi walking around", but if you're telling them to leave, do it "with compassion".
Seems like you've disagreed with me so many different ways, you've ended up disagreeing with yourself as well.
I don't know exactly what would happen. Maybe the Nazi would have the guts? Either way, all it does is get us thinking like fascists: gatekeeping, ego tripping, undermining each other with accusations and suspicions. What we should be doing is dismantling the power imbalances that enable fascism.
I can't blame you for punching Nazi clowns, they sure as heck deserve it. I just want to warn you that the more they get you worked up and upset, the more they have succeeded. Do what you need to protect yourself, but please don't take the bait.
I can't blame you for punching Nazi clowns, they sure as heck deserve it. I just want to warn you that the more they get you worked up and upset, the more they have succeeded. Do what you need to protect yourself, but please don't take the bait.
Now you've explained, I can see why you'd be antsy about the element which is "A kicks out B, then C accepts A's explanation even though C didn't personally see the evidence".
But if you were in a similar position in real life, quite often you _would_ be able to see the evidence. You'd be able to set your own eyes on the Nazi symbols; you'd be able to research & verify that they really were symbols in use by Nazis.
If anything, the story's encouraging you to know & notice those things.
Don't even get me started on dog whistles...
In Search of a Better World
Ian Langhamthats exactly how nazis operate. They're like a communicable disease.
Drive them out everywhere, every day...
Fey✨ 
@vantablack
reminds me of my favorite crustpunk bar
Actually had to help the bartender kick out a Nazi because that scumbag was already causing problems from the get go, got free drinks for the rest of the evening^^
from that point on the bartender stopped ignoring me :3
Jargoggles@vantablack
The tricky thing about fascists is that they don't even believe those "reasonable arguments." Fascists will say literally anything if they think it will help them gain power; words are meaningless to them.
For example, they'll talk a big game about something like "free speech absolutism," but the very first thing they do when they gain power is stifle free speech. Taking them seriously when they claim to care about something is a sucker's game.
Olibois
GwenTheKween - Find me @kitsunes.club, I don't see anything here@olibois @vantablack there is only a paradox of you assume that tolerance is a moral imperative.
If you treat tolerance as the social contract that it is, the paradox disappears. "Should I follow the contract restrictions even when the other person is breaking the contract?" Is a question we all know the answer to.
SpaceLifeFormThat is exactly how it happens. Exactly.
Persona Non Grata@vantablack This happened with bikers at a Canadian legion recently. A legion is a bar for veterans, and it has a charter. Anyone can come in and drink though. Eventually, they had to close the legion and cancel the charter because it wasn't safe anymore. Now the old guys who served our country have lost something important to them. No consequences for the bikers though. That legion was open for 75 years.
Jay@vantablack At a ren fair I went to recently (after not having gone for…years? Half a decade?) I remember walking past a jewelry stand with a bunch of symbols like Celtic crosses, Thor’s hammer, that sorta stuff, and at the base was a large sign stating that these pagan/religious symbols did NOT belong to white supremacy and the sellers reserved the right to reject any sales.
One of those conflicted moments where I’m glad it was clearly stated and sad it was necessary…
thesweetcheat@vantablack meanwhile in the UK we seem to prefer to sack the bartender who objects to the nazis. This just in:
ArmageddJen@thesweetcheat @vantablack what kind of weak ass "counter culture" brewery doesn't let you say "Fuck!" about racists?!? Sounds like a brewery that needs to be boycotted imo
@thesweetcheat @vantablack well then spread the word, nerd, bc I live in the US
Frank BurgensteinI am no 223 to share this.
Thank you for posting this allegory.
Germany in a nut shell
Catherine is not complacent@vantablack Christopher Pohlhaus the founder of the neo Nazi Blood tribe basically got kicked out of Maine. The gym in Augusta banned him for his tattoos, deliveries always seemed to get lost, and our legislators immediately drafted a bill banning militias. He was shunned and thankfully it worked as he sold his Blood Tribe fantasy camp and left .They need to be shunned.
Michael Dexter@vantablack Peak Twitter. Then it came true.
Cybarbie@vantablack "nazi punks fuck off" - Dead Kennedys
SearingTruth"Evil, unchecked, spreads like cancer."
SearingTruth