Steve Troughton-Smith

"iPhone Mirroring, SharePlay Screen Sharing enhancements, and Apple Intelligence”

Apple's screen sharing being the only one with remote control is very clearly self-preferencing. iPhone Mirroring, though? Beats me. None of these actually hit upon DMA rules directly, so maybe Apple's just pulling out the dirty tricks to try to turn users against legislators. If they applied this imaginary criteria to all their existing software, they'd have to un-ship virtually everything
https://mastodon.social/@macrumors/112655635256850912

Jun 21, 2024 at 4:55pmIvory for Mac
Show threadMikieJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @macrumors it’s getting pretty clear they think they are powerful enough to bully governments and not face repercussions, I think they might be surprised how it turns out..
Show threadRhys MorganJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @macrumors This comes across as pure spite fuckery, tbh
Show threadPhilippJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @macrumors yeah they are 100% trying to get people to turn on legislators with this. Not pulling out of EU market but juuuuuuuuust making it annoying enough for EU users to notice the “downside”
Show threadNumeric CitizenJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith the flip phone might me the best solution for EU... this is becoming ridiculous in my option.
Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith This is a non-trolling reply (really). I support people in the EU's right to not be forced to pay Apple via either AppStore commissions or via the CTF. I really do. Get apps from alt stores with no fees to Apple. But then I also support Apple not shipping (certain?) features to the EU. You buy your iPhone and get what's on it at that time. Nothing more. No OS updates, new features, new APIs. Cut off iMessage. Cut off iCloud/CloudKit. Hide my Email. Private Relay. Etc. 1/2
Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith Unless you pay for Apple One to get those services back. Like I said, I'm not trolling (I promise). I firmly hold the belief that there are a lot of ancillary services that Apple funds (to develop/run/support/maintain/distribute) that costs *ongoing* money (and lots of it) that a purchaser of an iPhone doesn't have an automatic right to ad infinitum *for free*. It'll be fascinating to see where this all lands in the longer term. 2/2
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

And the reason you support Apple not shipping those features tonthe EU is what exactly?

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith No sark, did you read both parts of my reply? I FIRMLY support EU residents (and in fact, anyone worldwide -- wish Apple would give this option everywhere!) to get Apps from Alt Stores, devs to pay no CTF, sideloading, etc. I.e. use your device free from any fees to Apple. But then you also don't get ANYTHING from Apple that costs them money to develop/support/maintain/distribute, etc. (See examples in my 2 posts). No-one has a right to Apple services for free forever.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

The second part didn't show up in my Mastodon client.

I guess Apple distributes the iPhones for free these days that for some reason I should no longer get whatever new features they implement. Even though iPhone revenue covers about 3x of Apple's R&D costs.

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Don't forget that Apple's execs will have you believe that they don't even care of AppStore is profitable or not, for example

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith Which is absolute nonsense. We can agree on that.
Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith So for these specific ones announced today, I don't really have a strong take on. I believe they will come to the EU once the kinks have been worked out. But I will support Apple if they were to choose to start withholding MORE from anyone who chooses to install an alternate app store, but still provide everything "included" for those who don’t. People can't have it both ways: pay Apple nothing after initial device purchase but expect ongoing access to costly services.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

So, once everyone in EU upgrades to iPhone 15/16, they should expect to have access to those services, right? Becasue those would be the services available for those phones, and paid for by the purchase of the phone. Right?

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

And if these services are costly, then the price of the iPhone will be reduced accordingly in the EU by the cost if these services that are no longer provided. Right? Right?

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith Nope. You pay for the device. Your app store commissions (and Apple One subs, etc) fund other services. You have NO RIGHT to ETERNAL ACCESS TO services that costs Apple money just because you bought a device. When I bought my car, I got 1 year of “connected driving" (remote start etc) included. After that one year, I could choose to keep paying for that, or lose the feature. I have NO RIGHT to use Ford's ongoing infrastructure costs just because I bought their car.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

iPhone revenue is 3x Apple's R&D expenses.

By buying my phone I've funded most of what Apple builds and distributes "for free".

If they claim I didn't, they must prove it. So far they've only claimed they didn't even care if AppStore was profitable.

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Since I'm likely to change my iPhone quite often, I fund *a lot* of what Apple does. So yes, I'm definitely entitled to Apple's products.

If Apple thinks it's costly, they can show the proof and offer me to pay for these services.

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

And yeah, you bought a car with a shitty contract designed to milk you dor money forever.

This proves... literally nothing.

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith But that's just the point. A shitty contract would be to disable the brake pedal if I don't pay. A good contract is we give you this EXTRA service, that's not needed for basic operation of the car you bought, and you can choose to keep paying us for that because for us to run that service costs money. And then it's up to me as the consumer to choose whether to pay or forego the service. I have NO right to that service for free forever.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Apple doesn't have a "you have this for a year, and then you can pay to continue". It's a package deal for iPhones, and is included in the price

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024

@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith You're right there. I believe they should change that to compensate for the new legal realities springing up globally.

But to come back to the initial point. None of the 3 services they announced they are withholding from the EU today were “included in the price” when you bought your iPhone, so you don't have rights to them, right? By your own logic.

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Then we're back to "if i buy iPhone 15/16, I should have rights to them" :) But even that doesn't seem to be the case.

And up to this point somehow all new developments and services were included in the package, but not from now on. And "the new legal realities" are largely self-inflicted by Apple IMO

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Side point: https://mastodon.social/@stroughtonsmith/112655895720105463

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

I do agree however that they could come out and say: we charge for these services because X and Y. And I guess many people would gladly pay.

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith Side point well made.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

I'm actually waiting for this news to appear on mjtsai because there will be a bunch of points we didn't think of in the heat of the moment.

I also realise we're actually closer in our thoughts despite the ongoing apparent disagreement :) I think we're just slightly off to different sides along the same line

Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024

@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith 100% agree. I think we've gravitated ever-so-slightly towards each other's arguments.

Maybe Apple CAN withhold services (or only include them for a specific period for “free”), but that must CLEARLY be part of the device purchase contract. Like they’ve done in the past for 3 months of free AppleTV+ if you buy a device. As it stands, they are NOT clear on this, so it's reasonable to expect ongoing access to services and new features.

High five, my passionate friend. 🙏

Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024
@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith
Show threadLeon CowleJun 21, 2024
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith I don't dispute your figures. I just don't think that's relevant. It comes down to expecting something for free. I don't believe ANY company (small, big, multi trillion dollar) is obliged to give *ongoing* services that cost money away for free. And no, initial device purchase doesn’t afford purchasers that ‘right’, irrespective about how much profit the company make on that purchase.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith

Those services are not free. They are literally a part of the package deal I paid for when I bought my phone.

They are literally advertised as a part of the entire package for a specific listed price. Even if I never buy a single app from the AppStore, and never pay for anything with ApplePay, I've already paid for those services.

Show threadjramskovJun 22, 2024

@leoncowle @stroughtonsmith They might as well stop selling their products in the EU then.

It’s amazing one of the world’s richest companies can’t figure out how to do business in the EU.

Show threadDaron Brewood 🇬🇧Jun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @macrumors if they don’t make it to the UK I’ll be very unhappy.
Show threadtarasisJun 21, 2024
@tekguru @stroughtonsmith @macrumors we likely will, in same way UK doesn’t get the EU specific stuff like alt stores.
Show threadDaron Brewood 🇬🇧Jun 22, 2024
@tarasis @stroughtonsmith @macrumors fingers are firmly crossed in that case. Deciding this year whether to upgrade my 14 Pro Max or Ultra 2 and this will be a major factor.
Show threadAndrés Pizá BückmannJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith My guess is that they believe there's legislative uncertainty on how DMA is applied. Therefore, they prefer not to release these features now to avoid wasting time on compliance and risk additional fines until all is cleared up.
Show threaddmitriidJun 21, 2024

@tovkal @stroughtonsmith

They believe in their own infallibility. The could ask, and participate in dialogs with the EU about compliance. They didn't, and then went out if their way to stay kon-compliant as long as possible.

The only "uncertainty" is they know they deliberately implemented features to be incompatible with DMA (how can you make screen mirroring non-compliant though?)

Show threadAndrés Pizá BückmannJun 21, 2024

@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith I guess iPhone Mirroring is not DMA compliant because it does not support Android (or you can't mirror an iPhone to a PC), or maybe because it uses APIs that a third-party developer can't use.

It is just a guess, I really have no idea about all this DMA stuff.

Show threadtarasisJun 21, 2024
@tovkal @stroughtonsmith baffled how iPhone mirroring falls afoul.
Show threadAndrés Pizá BückmannJun 21, 2024
@tarasis @stroughtonsmith No Android support, no PC support, uses private APIs not available to third party developers (aka unfair competitive advantage)
Show threadJohn GruberJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith What do you expect when you enforce the “spirit”, rather than letter, of the law? The CTF doesn't violate the letter of the DMA either and Apple is going to get dinged for it.
Show threadNiléaneJun 21, 2024
@gruber @stroughtonsmith Come on, you know the CTF clearly violates the letter of the DMA. I don’t think there is any scenario in the context of this law where it's okay for Apple to charge developers who distribute their apps completely outside of the App Store.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 21, 2024
@nileane @stroughtonsmith I have read the entire DMA and I see nothing that says a gatekeeping platform can't charge for access to its platform. It targets only the way Apple has been doing so to date -- by allowing distribution exclusively through the App Store, and requiring all commerce through the App Store to use Apple's payments.
Show threadBret CarmichaelJun 21, 2024
@gruber @nileane @stroughtonsmith Three things can be true:
1) Apple is burning credibility and good will with developers.
2) Apple’s actions are compliant with the letter of DMA, but not its honest intent.
3) The DMA doesn’t specify the honest intent of regulators, because doing so is to tell Apple that it can’t charge for its intellectual property and profit from the AppStore, effectively nationalizing it.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 21, 2024
@bretcarmichael @nileane @stroughtonsmith Agreed on all 3.
Show threadNiléaneJun 21, 2024
@gruber @bretcarmichael @stroughtonsmith I think y'all need to look up what nationalization means. 😅
Show threadScott FJun 21, 2024

@bretcarmichael @gruber @nileane @stroughtonsmith Didn’t Meta try this with Threads? “Oh, we can’t do the EU” then they did?

(Sorry in advance for the ramble)

The EU does try and solve problems to benefit their citizens just as Apple does for their users - and can have pros and cons as a result too - and I’d say, in general, in both cases, they mostly benefit the consumer. For every “irritating cookie warning”, there’s “domestic mobile roaming within the EU” and more (and the same applies to Apple).

The EU aren’t afraid to tell huge companies what to do (just as Apple isn’t with big “developers” like MS or Google).

As anyone commenting on the Apple ecosystem over the years has pointed out, there are problems that Apple needs to address (even if the answers aren’t simple and Apple aren’t addressing them unless forced to). But Apple - who aren’t afraid to play the parent’s “just because” card with developers, now find themselves in a bigger App Store that isn’t theirs to make the rules and the EU is just as willing to go “just because” too.

(I’m obviously pro-Apple, and pro-EU… I love the advantages of the Apple App Store…but also find it irritating as heck to have to go to the web to buy an ebook from Amazon when I have their app on my phone. I don’t see an immediate fix to this from the DMA… but can hope good answers can come from all this)

Show threadJonathan JoelsonJun 22, 2024

@gruber @nileane @stroughtonsmith Hypothetically, if the CTF were some absurd amount like a million dollars per install, do you think the argument that it complies with the DMA would still be reasonable?

The best thing Apple could do to convince developers and the EC that its CTF is not a poison pill intended to partially circumvent the DMA is to charge it for all apps on the platform, even those inside Apple’s App Store.

Show threadJohn GruberJun 22, 2024
@jjoelson @nileane @stroughtonsmith Yes. It would be fine for any company to make a platform where there's a million dollar entry fee for third-party development. Why not?
Show threadNiléaneJun 22, 2024
@gruber @jjoelson @stroughtonsmith It would not be fine if that company's platform had a dominant position on the market.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 22, 2024
@nileane @jjoelson @stroughtonsmith To be clear, I think it would be fine for the CTF to be absurdly expensive in principle; not under the DMA. I mean it certainly sounds like the EC is going to rule that 50 cents isn't legal, so of course €1M wouldn't be.
Show threadJonathan JoelsonJun 22, 2024
@gruber @nileane @stroughtonsmith If it wasn’t clear, I’m talking specifically about Apple in the context of the DMA. The reason it might not be fine is because the DMA says Apple must allow app distribution outside of Apple’s App Store but a large enough CTF de facto bans any developer from actually doing so.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 22, 2024
@jjoelson @nileane @stroughtonsmith Charging the CTF for all apps including from the App Store may well be where the EU is heading. I don't know.
Show threadMattJun 27, 2024

@gruber @stroughtonsmith What do you expect when Apple continues to push consumer and developer unfriendly policies?

Apple could *easily* do the right thing here for both. That they don't leaves me with zero sympathy of whether they actually violate the letter of the law.

Show threadsdwJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @macrumors I mean, seriously, if you were to have to sell apps in the US and there was some kind of nebulous policy that might make you risk having to pay huge fines even on your own global income, wouldn't you pause feature rollout there until you could ensure you wouldn't be fined?
Show threadPhilippJun 21, 2024
@sdw @stroughtonsmith @macrumors but we all know that’s not the reason Apple is doing this. They do it as a 🖕🏻 to the EU. You must know that’s the reason.
Show threadDavide Di StefanoJun 21, 2024

@sdw @stroughtonsmith @macrumors this is the new normal for every EU software developer: you study the law and try to apply it in the best way possible. If this is the case you have to fear nothing, because even in the worst scenario you can prove your good intentions and fix the problem as fast as possible.

I don’t get why Apple couldn’t do this while every software company I worked on could do it (even small startups)

Show threadMarc PuricelliJun 22, 2024
@sdw @stroughtonsmith @macrumors Apple is absolutely right to do so. The EU doesn't care about its consumers at all. Its only concern is to shift Apple revenue towards European companies. This is just a trade war between business elites. The impact of all this on the experience for users doesn't even come into play.
Show threadMarc PuricelliJun 22, 2024
@sdw @stroughtonsmith @macrumors I see a lot of "functioning government defends the little guy against corporate greed" takes on Mastodon, but it's important to remember that the EU is neither democratic nor is it popular in Europe. Every recent referendum on the EU has been lost. Citizens are waking up to the fact it's just a huge cartel of European, especially French and German, business interests.
Show threadMarc PuricelliJun 22, 2024
@sdw @stroughtonsmith @macrumors As for Apple, I fear that even without pressure from regulators they will ultimately compromise the user experience in favor of puhsing for additional revenue in the service space. That is inevitable over time for a publically owned company.
Show threadBuckJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith An an American Apple user, I'm **firmly** in the EU's camp on all this. It's beyond frustrating to see some of Apple's behavior here.