Should the original poster be able to remove replies to their post?

#EvanPoll #poll

Strong yes
31.8%
Qualified yes
36.5%
Qualified no
19.6%
Strong no
12.1%
Poll ended at .

So, I'm a strong yes.

Every ActivityPub post has a `replies` collection that contains all the replies to the post. The definitive version lives on the original poster's server.

The OP should be able to either approve replies before they're added to this collection, or remove them from the collection if they're added automatically.

The UI for ActivityPub apps should use this `replies` collection when showing the replies to a post. (Many of them currently just search for replies locally.)
If someone replies to a post, and the reply isn't added to the `replies` collection, it's still visible in the replier's feeds, to their followers, etc. It just doesn't appear in the UI for the original post.
@evan I'm not sure how I feel on Mastodon, though I do erase garbage posted on my Facebook wall and my YouTube channel.
@Moosader so, if that's a valuable feature of other networks, why wouldn't you want it here?

@evan It just feels different in a way, which is why I said I wasn't sure. My YouTube channel is where I post my videos and I curate that, my Facebook I post about my life and photos and such and I curate that.

I suppose Mastodon feels more like an open forum, where traditionally on Message Boards or something like Reddit, you can't just delete someone else's comment.

I would love to delete annoying replies from people on Mastodon, though. Total strangers are just needlessly snarky sometimes.

@evan @Moosader

Facebook is way more personal than Mastodon?

@FuckElon @evan my extended family, the siblings I was taken away from as a kid, and most of my friends are non technical and find something like Mastodon scary. Even when I was on Twitter, it was mostly online friends, not people I was around in my day to day life.

So yes, microblogging platforms like this feel like more of a network of similar professionals and hobbyists, while who views and can post on my Facebook is meant for closer relationships.

@Moosader @evan

That is exactly why I only have this one...😜

@evan At least I would like to be able to mute them. Mutet discussions don't seem to disappear from my notifications.
@evan Well… Right now, I can do that by hiding-unhiding the replier account (all posts from that person are hidden and don’t appear again in the notifications after unhiding it), but a way to just hide one post on occasions (and not all of them) would be appreciated, indeed.
@evan
There seems to be a view of the micro-blog thread as being in some way owned by the OP. I think I would be fine with them being able to remove replies from the thread _view_ but not able to just arbitrarily delete other people's replies outright.
@hybridhavoc @evan Same. "Dis-attach" a post from your thread, but leave the reply otherwise intact.
@evan I think they should be able to unlink the reply from the the posts timeline. That way the reply is still live on the replies site but isn't a part of the thread of the original post. Does that make sense?

@skryking
Technically, this would be the best way to implement it.

And I think it's a useful feature.
@evan

@evan (because I know you do post-poll analysis)

Qualified yes: you should be able to disassociate someone’s replies from your own messages, but deleting another person’s posts entirely has its own abuse concerns (and is an arms race at best).

(White cis man here, so maybe my opinion is naturally flawed/incomplete, but have been considering/reconsidering these ideas for a long time.)

@sean @evan I'm with Sean on this one (with the same disclaimers).
@preinheimer Always a good default policy to go with @sean

Agreed with @sean on the two distinct actions and distinction of who should have authority to do each one.

And IMO neither of those is adequately described as "remove" so I can't answer the poll @evan

@evan qualified yes, in that I think they should be able to hide the reply from all readers except the individual who posted it. I don't think I agree with actual deletion though.

@OldManToast @evan what do you mean "hide the reply from all readers"?

What if I follow both people? Shouldn't I, the reader, get equal access to all of the posts from everyone I want to read?

@evan such functionality is kind of incompatible with a distributed/federated social network, though.

Without a central authority overseeing this kind of thing, there’s no real central list of replies that one can order to remove.

@volkris @evan Maybe the flagging could be distributed just like an answer? Of course it depends then on the federated network software how of handles such flagging distribution. I don't see the need for a central authority here.

@mahlzahn maybe, but I wouldn’t see that as removal as much as, well, flagging, as you said.

It would leave it up to each instance to decide what it wants to do with the notification, whether to display the comment or not.

@evan

@volkris @evan I agree with you and voted for “qualified no” – flagging why not, hiding maybe, but deleting no (impossible).

@evan Qualified no.

Removed: no.
Flag as potentially appropriate (for example with a content warning field the original poster can fill) and not visible by default like the current UI for posts having a content warning: yes.

@evan I (mostly) don't think social software should default to showing replies with special treatment in the first place. But the "original poster" (author of any given post) should be able to *add* replies to their post.

I'm not sure if this makes my position a "qualified no" or a "qualified yes", but I'm gonna go with "yes" because it makes more sense to say that if you can explicitly add a reply, then you can explicitly remove it as well.

@evan Mostly if i change my mind about the post -- delete the post and all the comments with it. If there are comments that are nasty harassment, I might ask the admin to help delete those and block the sender.
@evan This would make me responsible for the replies under my post.

@evan

Qualified yes. I think that original posters being able to remove and otherwise moderate replies is a desirable feature, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every single platform should provide it.

The cultures of Twitter and Mastodon have evolved under a shared understanding that you own your posts whether they are replies or stand-alones, and people have learned to make use of this fact. Suddenly changing the functionality of Mastodon would inevitably cause some distress.

@evan

Personally, I'd be pretty unhappy if posts I had *previously* made as replies could suddenly be deleted at the whim of the originator of the thread.

@evan I mentioned it’s probably technically infeasible, but philosophically, I’d be against that too.

The reply that someone else made is sort of their work, their art. For you to be able to delete their work is something of an affront to the ideas that we make our own content around here.

Yes, their content referred to yours. No, that doesn’t make their content yours.

@evan To be able to mark it with "content warning" or some such.
Strong or qualified no, now that I have thought about it.

@evan Qualified no. Some level of control by the OP seems potentially useful but also possible to abuse as stated by other people on this thread.

It would require a lot of thought and trade-offs. Ex: does this capability nest? I.e. does a person replying get the ability to moderate sub-replies? What if the OP wants to hide a sub-reply but the intermediate poster doesn't?

I think perhaps more important than this though would be reply controls on the OP to prevent unwanted replies to begin with.

@evan Whilst I'd love to say yes... you know that this will be used by people to remove any comments that doesn't confirm their bias/agenda/point of views.

It's already bad enough when you have childish people who throw tantrums on their 'public' post if anyone doesn't agree with them.

A few months back, I commented that I preferred Star Trek SNW over Discovery and that Below Decks was currently the best ST show

The vile hate thrown at me by the poster earned that fanatic a block.

@evan I'm going to go with no, because although posts can be edited, posts are often used as evidence for muting instances, and bad moderations practices

@evan @evan Qualified Yes,

Qualification:

If the post was public, a public notice of the removal should replace it in thread

Removed : Disrespect
Removed : Spam
Removed : Off topic

OP chooses from drop down with the option to write in.

This info is useful to the public, OP, & offender.

@mrcopilot @evan May be too much work (to write in in more complicated cases), puts the onus on the victim of spam/abuse, and could attract further abuse. Nice idea but should be optional.
@mathi_gwithyas @evan block and mute still exists as would the default Removed : by OP.

@evan I’m qualified no, thinking in the context of AP (Which you obviously know better than I do):

I don’t see a way for the protocol to allow a user on server A to enforce that a reply for server B should be removed.

I *do* think the user’s own server can have afforances for not displaying responses that have been “removed”, so if that’s the definition of removed we’re talking about, I’d say yes, that’s fine.

But literally removed across the entire Fediverse? No, we shouldn’t have that power

@evan I don't see why not. Given that there are multiple types of social networks on the fediverse with different expectations for reply curation, it makes sense to just allow it for all of them.
@evan a qualified yes because sometimes you get people that harass you or just unhappy about something and jump on unrelated posts!
There are also reply guys, or just spam.
I think hiding is better than removing, if someone says something controversial, I don't want them to remove everyone that disagrees. But hiding spam or irrelevant replies makes the conversation easier to follow
@evan if I delete you mean, make them invisible to anyone but the original poster, who has no clue that they have been made so, then a strong yes.

@evan strong yes. They should be able. Nobody needs toxic garbage hanging off their posts.

But I think it should leave some trace. The ability to tolerate different opinions while ruthlessly vaporizing bad actors is a good measure of an internet poster's character.

@evan
Not remove, but maybe hide, like in Facebook... 🤔
@evan
@evan Like so many things here, it depends on the context. Is the actor a public figure or agency, a journalist, or a private citizen?

@evan I'm a qualified no.

No: Mainly because this would take away any ability of non-admins to fact check/correct misinformation.

Qualified:A mechanism to flag a reply as abuse to be escalated to instance moderation would be helpful in some cases.

I consider my toots public. I do feel a responsibility to "tend to" the replies, but I don't think that includes pruning them.

It's a different story on my own domain (e.g. blog) though, because I'm responsible for all content there.

@evan I voted "qualified no", saying no on mastodon and most social media, yes on giant public facing things like youtube videos, because I think the risk of mass harassment on the later is greater.
@evan Personally, I’m in favor of it. If someone posts hate speech on my comment thread, I’d rather scrape that off so that it doesn’t federate to everybody else I interact with.

@evan "qualified no"

From a pure technical sense, this is basically deleting other people's personal blog posts, so we know it's not really possible. Nor is "curating what others see". Everyone gets their own timeline.

But I can appreciate that popular accounts probably have some frustrations around viral posts. I can see value in an "end thread" feature asking your instance to simply drop the "in-reply-to" messages. Also notification controls for threads that one no longer wants to engage.

@evan But I definitely see conflation in roles here.

People want this place to behave as both a public discussion forum and a friend group forum. They want it to behave as a wide open internet and a curated experience.

They will use language like "my followers" instead of "people who follow me". "My posts" rather than "Posts published on this instance".

There's not really a way to be all of these things without designing up front for the multiple modes. And clearly delineating those modes.

@evan people asking to "delete replies to my post" are asking for a feature while operating under a specific context and modality. But because the modality isn't universal, it's not always obvious why a given feature won't work.

In fact, this is the common thread with basically every feature request I see. People operate under one context (me) and one or two modalities (how I use this app) without consideration for other contexts (admins, moderators, readers) or modalities. //

@gatesvp @evan

Is anyone working on a modality-context framework by the way?

Or would the variations or scenarios be endless?
@evan "qualified yes" because I think it might be technically naive given Mastodon's out-of-spec handling of replies (not using the original server as the source of truth)
@evan I don't think they should be able to remove them, but should be able to block them in the first place
@evan I would maybe argue to hide behind a click. The mods can remove after due process.
@evan because freedom of speech does not give carte blanche to any bigot to push their vicious ideas at you. They certainly have the right to speak but so too does everyone else have the right to shut the door in their face.
@evan A post is not a conversation. It’s an opinion that does need protection from abuse