Mastodawn

Matthew Garrett Jun 4, 2024

Current discourse is that it would have been wrong to throw a milkshake at Hitler, is it?

@mjg59 I gotta ask.

I'm Canadian; of #British politics I know only what I read. I'm happy to accept the fedi's assessment that this #Farage character is political scum of the lowest order.

#Progressives hate him; one threw a #milkshake on him, which is common assault. So he was assaulted because of his politics. And progressives are cheering it on.

Is #political #violence acceptable? If a #conservative had done this to a leader of the Greens or something, is that also #acceptable?

Matthew Garrett Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon political violence against fascists is acceptable, yes, because we know what comes next

Unfortunately, that's a fuzzy and #subjective line. Some random Hummer-driving MAGA-loving idiot may very well consider the leader of a "green" party to be a fascist for wanting to outlaw private vehicle ownership or non-EV vehicles or something like that.

I'm afraid that if you #condone assault on a politician for their views, you are approving its use against all politicians, and I don't like where that leads.

Robert Link Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 I support pie-in-the-face/milkshaking of all politicians. The good guys will laugh it off, the bad guys will be destroyed by the ridicule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieing#Political_acts

Pieing - Wikipedia

Matthew Garrett Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon cool and they'd be wrong

Let me know if you change your mind after "the other side" (whoever that might be) assaults you because they disagree with your views.

Condoning political violence because it's against people you dislike ain't gonna end well, and is morally reprehensible.

Matthew Garrett Jun 5, 2024

@cazabon it's trivial to produce an ethical explanation for why throwing a milkshake at a fascist is not the same as shooting someone advocating for the banning of internal combustion engines, and pretending otherwise is just tedious

Peter Kraus Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 I'd say the line is somewhere between benign, like a milkshake (Farage) or a slipper (remember that Bush gif?), and obviously intended to cause harm like being smacked with a bag (Giffey), beaten (Ecke) or shot (Fico).

Getting a milkshake dumped all over you in public isn't what I'd call benign. I know it would seriously inconvenience me, and represent a considerable expense if I was wearing clothes that don't like that sort of abuse.

I remember the shoes thrown at Bush. Hell, that's more benign than a milkshake; it did no damage and had no lasting effects.

edit: typo

PeachMcD Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 Conservatives with grievances rarely do anything as kind as throwing a milkshake & your question reveals your lack of real world context

Abstractions are useful when you want to muddy the water in any debate

Mercurius Goldstein Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59
Violence is always regrettable and sometimes acceptable.

If you can’t distinguish the moral and ethical valence between a milkshake toss and the statewide mobilisation of violence against vulnerable people that is at the core of every fascist movement, that’s a you problem, not the milkshake-thrower’s problem.

You'll pardon me for the fact that "I trust our side to only use political violence wisely" does not fill me with the confidence that it appears to do for you.

You'll also note that I specifically said I accept the view that he's scum. You don't need to argue with me about that.

Mercurius Goldstein Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59
Show one example in history where violence against fascists proved to be unwise, I’ll wait.

Hip Priest Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 Yes he's basically far right mainly on immigration. Good friends with Trump.

I too believe in peaceful protest, and throwing something at someone as an aggressive action regardless of what, though I get the anger it's not worth going to their level. If nothing else it lets them play the victim card.

The left shouldn't be using the traditional tactics of the far right to achieve progress (imo of course)

Jonas Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 Sure, let’s focus on how protesters on the left lack civility, throw food, glue themselves, and shut down biz as usual while protestors on the right brandish automatic weapons, make death threats against vulnerable communities, and kill people

Matt Palmer Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 you don't have to know anything about British politics to understand the paradox of tolerance.

Or indeed to believe that political violence is #unacceptable, and to uphold that #belief regardless of who the violence is targeting. Kind of like the ACLU and other groups once believed in supporting the right to free speech, even when those speaking were saying things they found #offensive and #intolerant.

"I support X, but only when it's my side doing it" is laughably #unprincipled.

So he was assaulted because of his politics.

Non sequitur.

Eh? Someone hated him for his #politics/views, and assaulted him. Yes, throwing a milkshake over someone is #assault - consult a lawyer/barrister if you disbelieve this.

You're arguing "it does not follow" that the assault was *because* of his political views? Utter #fantasy.

@cazabon Was it because of his politics, or his views, or his actions?

My point is: Why should someone be exempt from getting milkshaked just because they also happen to be a politician?

How about "it's not okay to assault someone because you disagree with their views", whether they're a politician or not?

@cazabon I disagree with your framing. Why is a milkshake an "assault", but what Farage does is only a "view"?

It's not "framing"; what she did to him absolutely, positively, 100% meets the legal definition of assault. Like I said, check with a lawyer/barrister if you don't believe this.

And unless Farage retaliated by dumping something on her or punching her in the face, and was attacked because of things he has said, then he was, by definition, attacked for his views.

"Speech is violence" is just as stupid and untrue as "violence is speech".

@cazabon This is getting increasingly unhinged.

It's not "framing"; what she did to him absolutely, positively, 100% meets the legal definition of assault. Like I said, check with a lawyer/barrister if you don't believe this.

How does that make it not framing? What do you think framing is? Using definitions wrong or something?

This is not a courtroom and I'm not a lawyer, so why are you using legal jargon? Especially since "assault" is so general and broad that it encompasses anything from me saying "I'm going to smack you" (without ever touching you) to me breaking every bone in your body with a crowbar. Sure, throwing a milkshake at someone is in there somewhere (probably), but as far as I'm concerned, there is a substantial difference between getting milkshaked and, say, getting stabbed. (I know which one I'd prefer!)

Yet you insist on discussing the situation in terms that don't allow for a meaningful distinction between verbal threats, minor inconveniences (like having to wipe off some milkshake), and serious physical harm. That's the framing. And as far as I can tell, the only purpose is to make the listener transfer some of their emotional response to the "physical harm" end of the spectrum ("someone was assaulted? how awful!") to the sillier side of things ("a milkshake? eh, whatever") by grouping them both under the same umbrella and then only using the umbrella term.

And unless Farage retaliated by dumping something on her or punching her in the face, and was attacked because of things he has said, then he was, by definition, attacked for his views.

I can't tell what you're trying to say here. Let's take Inigo Montoya (from The Princess Bride) as an example. Are you saying that, because Count Rugen did not retaliate (after being killed??) and was not attacked because of his words, Inigo Montoya therefore attacked Count Rugen for his views?

You know what? Let's not.

Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️‍⚧️Jun 4, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 Does that count as political violence? Doesn't it takes a, like, a punch in the face or even an assassin, to classify it as political violence?
Would throwing eggs/tomatoes/milkshake really hurt people? (Except if the milkshake is boiled to like 90C or the politician got infectious disease because of the eggs) Isn't that more like public shaming instead of "political violence"?

Yes, this was legally assault - simple assault or common assault depending on your country - also ethically and morally. I absolutely refute the idea that it's okay to assault someone because you disagree with their views.

And no, it's still not okay if it's "just a little bit assault-y".

Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️‍⚧️Jun 5, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59 さようなら

Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫Jun 5, 2024

@cazabon @mjg59

I think you're missing one point, which is that nobody threw a milkshake on him for mere disagreement with his views.

He was out campaigning for fascism, i.e. against the equal dignity of all humanity and for the cruelty, looting and ultimate wrecking of our civilisation. He was doing it knowing the media would report favourably or at least amplify his message.

The milkshake was a legitimate undermining of that friendly but false impression the media wish to create for him.

Not a Spring Onion Jun 5, 2024

@petealexharris @cazabon @mjg59

On March 10, 1950, a politician named Wolfgang Wedler held a speech trivializing and even finding positive words for the holocaust.

Three SPD politicians threw him out of the Bundestag, literally, and through a glass door.

Which is what one does with facists.