@hacks4pancakes dont tell them about Europe where you can sometimes get 2 hour lunch breaks 5 weeks paid vacation, plus other holidays, and still be among the most productive countries on the planet.

@bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes When people join my team, I tell them to go and look at productivity studies. Across different industries (I originally thought this was solely for knowledge workers, but I recently chatted to a researcher who has reproduced the same result in the construction industry), they all show roughly the same shape:

Productivity increases up to 20 hours a week.

It then plateaus up to 40.

It then starts to decrease and is typically negative by about 60.

This is the total net productivity, not the delta. If you are working 60 hour weeks, you would probably be more productive if you just stayed in bed all day.

For programmers, just think about how long it takes to fix a bug that you introduced when you were tired. Fixing mistakes (in any field) is often slow and expensive. Reducing the likelihood of making mistakes is usually much cheaper,

This is for sustained periods. People can often be productive for a 60-hour week if they are well rested, so if you have a one-off urgent deadline, it *may*be okay to work longer hours to meet it, as long as you take enough time off to recover. Averaged out (factoring in the recovery time), this tends to be less productive overall (ignoring the secondary impacts on people who have other commitments, like to see their families, and so on), so it’s generally a bad idea.

I want the most productive 20 hours of each employee each week. I don’t care when they happen (I’ve worked with some people who find they are most productive 2-4am, and that’s fine). Employees are responsible for getting enough rest to make sure that they can be productive for 20 hours each week.

I wrote our vacation policy to be explicit about the point of leave. It is not a gift from the company. It is not a reward for good behaviour. It is an obligation from the employees to the company to ensure that their brains are taken care of so that they can be productive. My contract (which is the model for new employees) has a minimum amount of leave I must take each year and a maximum time I can go without taking at least two days of leave.

The book I most recommend to new managers is PeopleWare and the most important point in that book is that, as a manager, it is not your job to make people work. Most people take pride in their work and want to do it well. Your job is to remove obstacles that stop them from being able to do good work. I don’t think it goes quite far enough because sometimes the biggest obstacle is the employee. If you’re hiring smart and motivated people, the most likely failure mode is that they work too hard and don’t notice their productivity dropping off. Sometimes you have to force them to take a week off (and you need a leave policy that supports you in doing so).

Sorry for the long rant, I haven’t had coffee yet and bad management annoys me, even when it’s depressingly accurate satire.

@david_chisnall This is such an important mindset and yet not regularly shared by management. I remember when I was in charge of a team someone complained another person was playing online games during the day at work and I was like- so what? They getting all their work done? Who cares if they play games while working as long as it isn’t disruptive.
@alysondecker That kind of thing is, I believe, one of the reasons I have found remote teams so productive. There’s a lot of social pressure not to do this kind of thing at work and people also don’t like to bring non-work things into their work space. This means people either don’t play games, or play games but are stressed about being caught and don’t relax. Meanwhile, people who work from home take a half hour break, play a game, distract their brain from work, and come back with the solution to the problem they were stuck on.
@alysondecker @david_chisnall if we as managers start treating employees like human beings how will we fill the voids in our souls currently being fed by intentional cruelty though

@alysondecker @david_chisnall

I am astonished by how much people miss this. If I get a reasonable volume of assigned work done with high quality, why does it matter whether it took 15 hours or 55?

But so many managers care about seeing employees try to be productive consistently throughout X hours, and care nothing about specific productivity.

@alysondecker @david_chisnall I was at a game studio where the owner told a group of employees to stop playing a game and get back to work, and the thing is, it was the game we were making and they were actually enjoying it. Til then, anyway.

@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes
The major problem, of course is that administration and management will never believe it. They cannot believe it, because it would imply that only field experts can judge productivity, not time sheets or metrics. It would mean that people are not commodities and that management cannot treat them on their terms, but actually have to judge the product.

I have my doubts it can happen at any institution large enough to have a management caste.

@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes yes, i'd first read Peopleware in the mid-nineties and it's lessons have held up well ever since

@joncruz @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes One of the most depressing experiences in my time at Microsoft was in the compulsory training for new managers (people who hadn’t been managers at MS before) in 2020. The person running the course asked a question and then proudly told us that he’d have given a different answer when he taught management 20 years ago, to show us how up-to-date he was with new management ideas. The new correct answer was the one that management theory books published in the ‘80s recommended. The worst thing was that a lot of these were written by people who were contrasting Microsoft’s new management style to IBM’s old one.

The rest of the course was about as good as you’d imagine. The first exercise was for everyone to pick a Teams background that best represented their ‘authentic self’ and explain why. This was done with in a group with no prior connection and where the convenor did nothing to make it a safe space for people to express themselves. It was quite telling that the only people who put up family photos were people in heteronormative relationships. This could have been an interesting teachable moment, but the person running the class was completely oblivious to the fact that it had happened.

It was a good set of case studies in what not to do.

This was the course that was made compulsory because Satya decided he cared about good management. Now he says he cares about security. I expect that to go exactly as well.

@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes Sadly bad management seems to be the norm these days, but I like the way you think here. 
@david_chisnall Is your team hiring?
@johana @david_chisnall was going to ask the same thing :D
@voxpopsicle @johana Hopefully we’ll start our next round of hiring soon, mostly looking for toolchain folks.
@david_chisnall @voxpopsicle Awesome. Your kind response enticed me to follow you, so hopefully I’ll see the job posting when it goes up. I have mostly worked in front end web dev, but would be excited to build tools. 🤓
@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes “as a manager, it is not your job to make people work. Most people take pride in their work and want to do it well. Your job is to remove obstacles that stop them from being able to do good work.” I definitely agree! Most people I work with have wanted to get their work done, and get frustrated when corporate policies make that difficult.
@jemonat @david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes
It was the final straw in my leaving a job in February 2020 (not my best ever timing :D )

@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes
60 hour weeks being net negative seems a bit suspect, any sources for that?

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunchmode/econ-hours-productivity.html and https://www.innovativehumancapital.com/post/what-research-says-about-the-dangers-of-long-working-hours say 60 hour weeks can be less productive than 40 hour weeks (absolute output).

https://www.andrewjensen.net/should-you-work-more-than-40-hours-a-week/ talks about 80 hour weeks snapping back to 40 hours quickly.

Those aren't actual studies, but still it being net negative sounds... incredible :)

Crunch Mode: programming to the extreme - The Relationship Between Hours Worked and Productivity

@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes Just to be clear: you're saying overall productivity per, say, week is about the same for any number of nominal work hours per week between 20 and 40?

Not disputing, just making sure I'm reading you correctly.

@david_chisnall @hacks4pancakes 1. This is total per-week productivity, not per-hour productivity, right?

2. What do you think about people who do multiple jobs? If you ask them to work 20hrs a week as you think is optimal, do you think you should be able to legally prevent them from working at any other job at the same time? Doing two 20hr/week jobs at the same time is quite realistic, and I suspect many people would try this if 20hr was commonplace. I suspect it's more economical to hire for 40 hours and stomach the loss than to hire for 20 and have them work another 20 for a different company, at the same low productivity for both.

@miki

When one of your 20 hr/week jobs is being a cashier at a convenience store, you're just being a warm body/deterrent/shelf-restocker. Basically a sneakerbot. No productivity needed

@JohnLAlford @miki
Having been a retail clerk at a convenience store before, I can say with 100% certainty, that the drain on the employee's, well, everything, has FA to do with the mechanics of the job and everything to do with dealing with customers; who, a large percentage of - for some reason - seem to think abusing the clerk is cheaper than therapy.
Be nice to those folks.
Odds are they've already dealt with 5 assholes before you.
@TessRants
Been a convenience store clerk and a gas station attendant as well. I don't know why the conversation turned from employee health to productivity. Thanks for putting it back on track!
@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes @Phyxis this all aligns very closely with my own experiences, but I really want the bibliography on those productivity studies, though!
@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes
Do you have reference or link why of these studies? I would love to read up on them
@david_chisnall @bbbhltz @hacks4pancakes
One of the main problems with any form of management is that businesses often promote employees to the level of their incompetence.
For instance, if they have a good programmer, eventually, a company will promote that person up to managing other programmers, as if the two jobs were even vaguely related.
Managing people is its own, and quite difficult, skill set. And most companies don't provide training for middle management.
It's a setup for failure.