Mastodawn

Annie Golden May 19, 2024

One that I really don't like about the fedi is that there is this underlying need to view bigots as redeemable, to the point where those of us who are not friendly to people who harass us are chastised for not being ‘nice enough’ in the hopes a serial abuser comes around.

The fedi has to accept some people are just hateful pieces of shit, and no amount of kindness will change that. These kinds of people are attracted to unregulated spaces.

It doesn't matter if they are having a bad day. Harassment and abuse under any circumstances is not ok.

And it's not our job to teach bigots how to be decent people by absorbing their cruelty.

Dana🗽Love Globally May 18, 2024

@are0h strong agree and also the cruelty isn't only personal at all but is a belief system or value system or religion that governs them in large social groups devoted to domination (ie passion for and indoctrination into sadism)

Court Cantrell does not comply May 18, 2024

@are0h Tolerating the intolerant turns everything into a Nazi bar. No thanks. I will continue not "being nice" to abusers, trolls, and bigots.

Amelia May 18, 2024

@are0h Nobody can be taught if they have not consented to learning.

And hate kind of gets in the way of that consent.

@are0h yeah... Not just Fedi it is endemic across tech, and elsewhere.

It hooks into the same status quo stuff as wanting to federate with harmful networks like threads.

People want to redeem abusers because they still see or directly benefit from the value they get from them.

Mad Villain May 18, 2024

@onepict So here's the thing with comments like this.

As I exist in the world, of course, I know it's not just the fedi, but as this is where we are engaging, that's what I'm talking about.

So comments like 'Oh, it's not just here' fall flat for me at best and are condescending at worst.

I would advise you to consider why you are deploying this comment in the future and examine if it's really needed.

@are0h We do see it more on the fediverse because that is where we are.

I didn't comment to downplay your experience.

I do think we need to be honest that it is everywhere and the fediverse isn't the utopia some folks would try to paint it as.

Mainly because I've seen tech communities try to paint themselves as that, then pivoting to freedom of speech while ignoring the freedom of association part. All the while harassing others who are trying to moderate their communities.

Mad Villain May 18, 2024

@onepict I never said we see it more here or there, so that's just an assumption you are making based on nothing.

I also did not claim at any point that the fedi is a utopia, so that is moot.

The point about tech companies is also moot because I'm not saying anything on their behalf, so it's unnecessary.

It's okay if those are your concerns, but attempting to derail what I am saying to focus on what you feel like you want to talk about is something I don't appreciate.

Again, I advise you to reflect on why you need to do this.

@are0h I do apologise for that.

I'll leave it at that.

Mad Villain May 18, 2024

@onepict It's all good.

Just try a different approach in the future.

@are0h "And it's not our job to teach bigots how to be decent people by absorbing their cruelty."

THIS!!

🗣ONE MORE TIME FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!

Mad Villain May 18, 2024

@phillip The expectation that we are just supposed to take people's shit because we are 'Good People' is complete and utter bullshit.

Vincarsi May 18, 2024

@are0h I mean, I think most people are redeemable if they put the work in. But I also believe that being soundly rejected for their harmful behaviours and attitudes is the only effective way to motivate them towards doing that work. Pandering to their insecurities at the expense of their victims only insulates them from accountability, giving them no reason to change. Kick the bigots and make *them* put the effort into reconciliation if being kicked upsets them. They're not owed shit

jake lazaroff May 19, 2024

@are0h @mekkaokereke strong agree that the onus should not be on people receiving harassment and that we should kick bigots out of our spaces (or better yet prevent them from entering in the first place). but i feel like the idea that “this group of people is irredeemably bad and they are ontologically distinct from good people” is one of the main tools used to place that onus on people being harassed? e.g. “cut him some slack, he didn’t mean it, he’s a good guy — not one of those REAL bigots”

John Hunter May 19, 2024

Related, to me at least, Maslow on Dealing with Authoritarians

"The correct thing to do with authoritarians is to take them realistically for the bastards that they are and then behave toward them as if they are bastards. That is the only realistic way to treat bastards. If one smiles and assumes that trusting them and giving them the key to the pantry is going to reform them suddenly, then all that will happen is the silver will get stolen..."

https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2011/08/08/maslow-on-dealing-with-authoritarians/

Maslow on Dealing with Authoritarians |

Deirdre Saoirse Moen May 20, 2024

@are0h And yet, we (talking about white people, talking to our white bigots) *do* need to make the effort to find people who aren't complete hateful pieces of shit be at least less hateful pieces of shit.

Even if we only get them to move a bit off one axis of hatred.