Augie RayMay 7, 2024
"I'm so angry at Biden over Isreal/Gaza that I'm going to help Trump destroy democracy, weaponize the Justice system, send millions to deportation camps, lower the taxes on the wealthy and shift the burden to the middle class, cut Social Security, track and prosecute women having abortions, pardon the people who violently attacked Capitol police, dismantle NATO, help Russia, AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT do even more harm to Palestinians" is a take--it's just a really awful take, IMO.
Show threadEvan ProdromouMay 7, 2024

@augieray

"I support this war so much that I'm going to ignore the position of the vast majority of my constituents and party members even though it endangers our chances of re-election in the Fall" is also a take.

Show threadAugie RayMay 7, 2024
@evan I find that glib. Biden does not "love war." And I suspect you're mature and smart enough to understand he's between a rock and a hard place over support for Israel and Gaza. So, in the end, the choice is yours: You can be really, really angry at Biden and not vote, or you can do more to help the world and make Gaza safer by voting for Biden. Elections are not love affairs--you're selecting between flawed choices, not getting everything you want in a candidate.
Show threadSeb
@augieray @evan And if a leader was supporting a regime killing your children you’d still vote for them as the lesser of two evils? I mean I get it - I’m as terrified of Trump 2 as anyone, but this isn’t an easy decision for anyone so a little bit of empathy does help rather than “you’re stoopid if you don’t vote”.
May 7, 2024 at 3:41pmWeb
Show threadAugie RayMay 7, 2024
@seb321 @evan If it was a choice between one man who CLEARLY is doing his best to limit the violence while balancing sensitive political demands versus the man who thinks bombing people of color and Muslims is the answer, then yes, I'd vote the first guy. That's because I'm a mature voter who recognizes the way the world works and knows that I pick the candidate who is best, not the one who is perfect.
Show threadSebMay 7, 2024
@evan @augieray Another question then: do you think people are more or less likely to vote the way you think they should after you have criticised them and described them as illogical? Aren’t you a bit like the men telling women why they are wrong to prefer the bear?
Show threadAugie RayMay 7, 2024

@seb321 @evan I said people who think like that have a bad take. I did not criticize them. I'm focused on the ideas and outcomes, not on criticizing people.

If I were to say the people who care about reproductive rights shouldn't avoid voting for Biden just because he has failed to get those rights passed into law, would that be criticizing people, or would that be addressing an illogical assessment?

Show threadDodgy TheoriesMay 7, 2024

@seb321 @evan @augieray

" do you think people are more or less likely to vote the way you think they should after you have criticised them and described them as illogical?l".

You're going to base your vote on what some rando said on the internet?

Show threadAdlangxMay 7, 2024
@seb321 @evan @augieray If being mildly criticized is enough to make you vote for a scumbag like Trump then I don't know what to tell you.
Show threadClickyMcTickerMay 7, 2024
@seb321 @evan @augieray I think you’ve misjudged the positions. The person who recommends voting for Biden over Trump when neither option satisfies their beliefs on the conflict is akin to being the woman choosing the bear over the man. Neither choice is great, but they choose the better of the two options. You are the man of this story telling us why we’re wrong to prefer the bear.
Show threadSebMay 8, 2024
@ClickyMcTicker @evan @augieray I’ve not posted any opinion on how anyone should vote. I’ve not even criticised anyone’s opinion on how anyone should vote. I’m questioning tactics.
Show threadceolnMay 7, 2024

@augieray @seb321 @evan

I rather disagree with the idea that Biden "CLEARLY is doing his best to limit the violence"; he is doing a little, but he could do a lot more.

It's likely that the reason he isn't doing a lot more is that he's afraid of losing votes on the pro-Likud side if he does.

He might therefore do more to limit the violence if he had evidence that he should be afraid of losing votes on the anti-genocide side if he doesn't.

It's not like the choice is between two fixed and static positions, Biden-as-given and Trump-as-given. If Biden believes that genocide opponents will stay home if he keeps fully funding the genocide, there's a greater chance he'll stop doing that. His need for votes can change his behavior.

There's a whole issue about whether the anti-genocide people are actually bluffing of course, and whether they'd actually risk a Trump presidency by staying home if he doesn't do more for Palestine. And I think it's frankly best if he can't assume it's just a bluff.

Show threadAmoshiasMay 7, 2024

@seb321 @augieray @evan so, given the exact circumstances you are describing, you would vote for the person who has explicitly advocated genocide over the person who is merely doing an insufficient amount to stop it?

Or alternately, you would stay at home, not willing to vote for the person who has done an insufficient amount to stop it, knowing that meant increasing the likelihood that the person who explicitly advocated genocide would get into power.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Show threadDodgy TheoriesMay 7, 2024

@seb321 @augieray @evan

Dude, grow up. Democracy is always a choice between two evils. You just have to choose the lesser.

Show threadManVsXerox: Resistful DingusMay 7, 2024

@seb321 @augieray @evan

Voting is not fixing everything, it's more like repair and maintenance work, it's not gonna fix your car, but it will keep it running and maybe even improve it a little. You have to keep doing it or the car will fall apart, even if you don't like doing oil changes.

In a choice between the lesser of two evils most philosophers would agree that choosing the lesser evil is the more moral choice, evil is not black and white, it's a spectrum ffs.