Mastodawn

@actuallyautistic @neurodivergence The degree requirement, in particular, is one I want to highlight. I was a National Merit Scholar, with a free ride to a major, respected university. But I lost my scholarship and ended up homeless for a time because of my (as yet undiagnosed) disability. By the time I got back on my feet, college was no longer an option. But guess what? I kept actively learning on my own, and even pursued my own research agenda in machine learning and NLP. So I don't have the piece of paper you want to see, but I'm a stronger candidate than a lot of folks who *do* have that piece of paper. You'll never know that, because your job description is implicitly ableist in excluding neurodivergent folks who were not a good fit for university -- thanks to ableism there, as well.

@actuallyautistic @neurodivergence My fellow neurodivergent folks, tell me the ableist requirements you've seen in job descriptions. Let's give folks some insight into the stuff that contributes to systemic ableism in the workplace. I know there are way more examples than the few I've already listed.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

Must work well as part of a team.

Any other duties. (So just anything they make up that's not related to the job you were hired to do)

@sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence Right! It depends on the team anyway, doesn't it? Is it a team of people who are autistic and/or comfortable working with autistic people? Or were those folks already filtered out by your previous ableist hiring practices?

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence It's not even that I can't work as a team but every team contains at least one person who is just into head games & gossip & being a prick & they infect everyone else.

Often I can see it. Can't unsee it & ultimately have to deal with it. That puts a target on your back & before you know it the rest of the team are turned against you.

@sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence Over and over and over. We are canaries. If there's something toxic in the air, it'll take us out first.

I always end up being the target of some jerk who wants to prove to himself and everyone else what a piece of garbage I am for not being compliant with his manipulations. Even in cases where the rest of the team sides with me, it ends up being a fight to the death. I try to make peace with the aggressor repeatedly, to no avail.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence Yeah by our very existence we threaten the insecure, the bully & there's no way of avoiding the conflict.

Selena Mar 25, 2024

@hosford42 @sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence
'we are canaries'
💯

Russell McOrmond 🧠🌈♾Mar 26, 2024

@hosford42 @sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

I tried to explain to the management team at a previous workplace that I was a canarie, but that only added to the claims of "insubordination". I got pushback about how I wasn't a manager, wasn't an expert on management, etc.

Attempts to explain fairly well-known problems such as Peter Principle generated reprimands.

When added with other problematic policies, Eventually I was forced to resign.

https://mcormond.blogspot.com/2023/09/resignation.html

End of an Era: My resignation from CRKN

I have written about my resignation on social media, but since I’ve been asked what happened by people not on the socials I am posting here...

Russell McOrmond 🧠🌈♾Mar 26, 2024

@hosford42 @sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

The largest problem I see is, while hiring practises filter neurodivergent candidates, there is also problems with retaining employment.

That past employer used all the "right words" for embracing diversity in their hiring, but then had a corporate culture that rejected anyone "too" different.

Anyone can join the organization, as long as they then keep their true selves at home.

https://mcormond.blogspot.com/2024/03/autism-employment.html

Observations about (a review of)^2 Autism Employment

I am very thankful for articles by Jim Hoerricks. The latest is: A deep dive on the Buckland Review of Autism Employment: report and recomm...

Aaron Mar 27, 2024

@russellmcormond @sentient_water @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence I unfortunately have reason to agree with you based on firsthand experience.

CarrieHall

@sentient_water @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

Well, I dunno, I know a lot of ND folks that work well on Teams (I'm one of them), I kind of feel that can be a bit of a stereotype? or it's a misconception about autistic people

@CarrieHall1001 @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence I did say I can work well with teams. I can't work well with people who are manipulative & abusive though. Even though they're not the majority of people I find I'm often the only one who sees it.

It's very much a Cassandra Complex (but for psychopathology).

mirabilos Mar 26, 2024

@CarrieHall1001 @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @sentient_water @neurodivergence depends on the team. I find daily meetings worse. Scheduled meetings of any kind, as opposed to just informally sync with each other during normal team talk, that is. (This was pre-Corona, pre-homeoffice. I still find daily meetings abhorrent, so I’m preferring to not work in a tightly coupled team that needs syncs this often.)

"Agile" in general. Scrumtology & Co. are a management measure with which a homogenous low-skilled NT team can be made more efficient, but it’s a poison for the creatives and fails with heterogenous skillsets and levels.

@CarrieHall1001 @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence Also please see my toot about generalisations. I hate them, especially when I'm making them. I'm always conscious that no statement applies to ALL.

Autigirl Steph

Mar 25, 2024

@hosford42 @[email protected] @[email protected] not in job requirements specifically, but I've done interview training where they specifically told us to judge candidates based on their eye-contact

@PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic This is one of the worst ones. It's hard to get more explicitly ableist against autistic people than judging folks based on eye contact. The worst thing is, police are taught to do this, too. And when they misread you, they have the legal license to use violence.

@hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic This is also really stupid of the police too because there's tons of evidence showing that actual criminals know this & so deliberately make eye contact.

More enlightened law enforcement know this & so actually expect innocent people to avoid eye contact.

I've just started watching a french series called Astrid: Murder in Paris about an autistic woman who works in the police records unit. It's excellent 👌🏾

Though it's an over used trope I can't help myself. Anyway back to it.

Naia Mar 26, 2024

@sentient_water @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic that series has some great little moments that display autism in a dramatic but generally accurate and friendly way. I noticed some of my own habits through watching it!

@KeytarCat @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic Yeah it's superbly acted. I love the idea of an Autistic Adults Anonymous group too.

It doesn't shy away from the hostility & abelism many of us experience too.

Only just watched the second episode though I think I'm going to love diving into it.

@sentient_water @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @[email protected] Which of course is perverse, because then as an innocent autistic person who is broadly capable of eye contact (I doubt to a typical level) I'm likely to make an effort to do so . . .

@sentient_water @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @[email protected] I'm also conscious that because I'm bright and articulate, it probably increases the chances that a lack of social understanding is misinterpreted as a wilful attempt to screw around or manipulate them.

Loops 🍑

@sentient_water @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic @hosford42

@alastair which is why supposing intent is such a frustration interacting with allistics. Why do they expect they can mind read? Afaik it’s well-known that that’s uh, not considered a good thing in psychology

@loops @alastair @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic @hosford42 Exactly this 💯 in the therapeutic setting we're constantly reminded how we can't read minds & that we don't know someone's true intentions. Yes I agree but we can know someone's consistent actions over an extended period & draw conclusions from them.

Though when it comes to autistics we are constantly punished & pathologized because we can't read minds.

Once again The Double Empathy problem & of course double standards.

@alastair @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic @hosford42 Absolutely this idea of "high functioning" is incredibly harmful.

You "seem" to have no problem understanding lots of things why can't you understand this hint, this ambiguous command. We're also predisposed to self incrimination too.

Some years ago I was stopped for speeding & when asked what the speed limit was. "30 mph" I said. "What speed were you doing?" "44 mph" The cop then said "You know you just admitted to a crime?" "Well that's what I did."

I always obey the speed limit though it was late at night & I was moving from a 50 to a 30 zone & there were no other vehicles on the road.

Thankfully due to my respectful tone, baffling honesty & the cop not being an ahole. I was let off but it could have gone much worse.

@sentient_water @PurpleStephyr @[email protected] @hosford42 I think the standard advice when being interviewed under caution/arrest is generally 'no comment' (I am not a lawyer). Of course that could be complicated by things like knowing information you want the police to have for their investigation. Or indeed taking such advice too literally.

@alastair @actuallyautistic @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 Yeah I know that should be the default answer but it can come across as obstructive or suspicious in itself. Besides my autism generally insists I answer any questions asked of me honestly & accurately.

Aaron Mar 26, 2024

@alastair @actuallyautistic @sentient_water @PurpleStephyr I'd be afraid to use that phrase with an officer. I'm sure they'd think I was "copping" an attitude. (Sorry, I literally can't help myself with the puns. I admit, I have a problem.) Even when I'm being completely genuine and up front, I get accused of having some sort of attitude.

@sentient_water @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @[email protected] It does a good job of recognising that autistic people have empathy and metacognition, as well as it not always being visible (I'm thinking of the group leader in the pilot).

@alastair @actuallyautistic @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 Yeah William? He's a total sweetheart.

@alastair @actuallyautistic @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 Really glad I've got someone else to chat about this show with. Gonna watch the third episode tonight.

It's fascinating because there are MANY autistics in the show but almost every other represention in the past has been a single autistic surrounded by allistics.

I love how among themselves there's no real communication difficulties.

@sentient_water @[email protected] @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 I would have said there are autistic people I've met where I am actually more like a neurotypical than I am them, and I think the first thing that is important (which Raphaelle does) is simply to accept that the person is atypical in some way without needing to justify it or apply prejudices.

@[email protected] @[email protected] @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 It does have the problem of savant skills being over-represented.

@alastair @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 @actuallyautistic Oh absolutely. Weirdly the most "autisticky" people I've met have been those who've had the earliest diagnosis. They've been coddled & also constantly reminded of their limitations. They're told, & their parents are told. They'll never live independently, so they don't. They'll never have friends or a partner. So they don't.

"Argue for your limitations & sure enough, they're yours."

The constant insistence for the earliest possible diagnosis is weird & I think detrimental.

I've lived a very full life & have autistic friends who've never got a DX or much later in life. They similarly have raised families, been married, had careers.

the Amygdalai Lama Mar 26, 2024

@sentient_water @alastair @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 @actuallyautistic
.
I suppose that's the theory that some of us never get told what we are on. 😬 ❤️

alastair87 (old account)Mar 27, 2024

@sentient_water @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 @[email protected] On the other hand large numbers of us can end up homeless, in abusive relationships, in the criminal justice system or worse due to lack of understanding and accommodation. So it's difficult.

Semi Sentient AI Cooling Water Mar 27, 2024

@alastair @actuallyautistic @PurpleStephyr @hosford42 Oh yeah I've experienced all that stuff too. I certainly recognise my own vulnerability & difficulty with adulting. Though in a way it's actually those very challenges that have given me a range of resources.

I think I'm saying, it's about over protection & about giving us more credit & capacity than we're usually given.

I just don't know why a five year old NEEDS to know they have a complex neurological condition. How does that benefit them?

We also need to stop pathologizing harmless autistic traits.

Aaron Mar 27, 2024

@sentient_water @alastair @actuallyautistic @PurpleStephyr My kids have known from the beginning that I'm different, and what the words are for that. I've made no secret of my opinion that they are most likely similar to me in that regard. The key is to not pathologize it, but rather embrace it. Yeah, we are different. Anybody who doesn't accept us as we are is in the wrong, not us for being who we are. We have fun with it. We laugh about our individual oddities, and we talk about not only the cons, but the pros. So when my daughter got diagnosed with dyslexia, there wasn't even a hiccup in her self-esteem. I feel like, of all the parenting decisions I've made, this was one of my biggest successes.

Log 🪵Mar 26, 2024

@hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic I know a human that alternates between looking at the sellion of the nose and focusing on the interior of the skull where the visual cortex should be. It isn't *avoiding* eye contact so much as ensuring that the eye rays don't sync up and trigger a social engagement signal.

Aaron Mar 26, 2024

@log @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic I tried to use this trick as a kid, when my dad demanded I look him in the eye to prove (in his version of reality) that I was being truthful. Of course, he was actively staring into my eyes, so he could tell I wasn't actually looking into his, and I got in trouble for it. Ever since then, my strategy is to look at people's eyes but look away really quickly. Do this often enough, and it doesn't seem to trigger their "not like me" radar, which otherwise invariably leads to repercussions.

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦Mar 26, 2024

@log @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic it me. learned it in acting classes. like, literally, one of the first things the taugh us in acting classes in Puerto Rico. it's a bit different here in the US.

Jo - pièce de résistance Mar 26, 2024

@blogdiva @log @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic

You know the expression eyes are the window to the soul, well maybe I don’t really want to see your soul especially in a job interview.

As an autistic that doesn’t have problems with eye contact…if you do look people in the eyes, most look away naturally. No one likes it, unless it’s babies, intimate partners, or dogs & cats. People use it only as a bs power play. They aren’t self aware of their own lack of eye contact.

Oggie Mar 26, 2024

@JoBlakely @blogdiva @log @hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic
I have an entire masking routine for eye contact because I discovered the limits of what makes people uncomfortable. It's based on my heartbeats, flickering and emphasis stressing. It's also so stupid, eye contact typically doesn't give much information compared to, say, shoulder tension.

It's frustrating.

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦Mar 26, 2024

@hosford42 @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic in latin america, this is the stereotypical gringo thing to do. when anyone demands that, in Puerto Rico we call it a gringada. we don't do forced eye contact, especially if we are Black, Indigenous or both, due to the obvious histories of colonization.

i wasn't Dx until 50 and part of the reason is that as an afroindigenous latinoamericana, eye contact is a nono with stangers. it’s not that we don’t do it. it’s earned as a sign of mutual respect.

Aaron Mar 26, 2024

@blogdiva @PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic That's an interesting cultural difference that I was not aware of. Thanks for sharing!

Andre Louis Mar 26, 2024

@hosford42 @PurpleStephyr Blind people too. I have eyes that *look* like they're fully-functional, but I have very little control over them, so cannot make eye-contact.

Loops 🍑

@PurpleStephyr @actuallyautistic @hosford42 basically, judging candidates by any kind of social norm that isn’t actually hurting anyone makes the process inaccessible to autistic people

Rae Mar 25, 2024

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence Having to work in office.

@vk2gpu @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence YES

Rae Mar 25, 2024

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence A good compromise would be private office, 3 day work week, private parking spot and company car/commute paid for.

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦Mar 26, 2024

@vk2gpu @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence boomers had it great like that. then took it away as GenX entered the labor markets.

mirabilos Mar 26, 2024

@vk2gpu @hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence that was not so bad in the old building where I had a small room to myself.

Smallest rooms in the new building are 4, and space even tighter. I totally dreaded to move; thankfully Corona has forced me to get used to homeoffice, and I’ve now permanent catoffice.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

I have a strange work history. I started teaching computer to nurses in the 90s at 12. I went and progressed really well until I hit burnout a couple times. I was the bootstrap kid. I mean why give up just if life deals you shit I thought.

I had good mentors.

I can still remember all thier advice. It was a privledged life I learned.

Now I realize my internalized ableism broke me down over time. So that’s from another perspective.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence
Realizing I was autistic litterally changed my life. Why? It’s like experiencing life is different now. I felt like the weird eccentric non traditional non-conformist who did the interviewing as well for most of my jobs. I had a rough time working for people I didn’t respect, and my last burnout was horrible. I lost my business, house. Life poof. But I’m still here trying to learn about life in a meaningful way. I’ve found my tribe though!

@EVDHmn @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence So often we follow unusual life trajectories due to our cognitive differences. The degree requirement, as an actual hard requirement, puts a straight jacket on that, excluding anyone who isn't ordinary. But often it is our extraordinary paths that give us unique and valuable perspectives. I think it's fine to require a degree *or equivalent experience*, but excluding alternative sources of education (e.g. autodidacts) is ableist and harms the prospective employer, too.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence
I got excused from most of those requirements except for a couple hospitals. I never didn’t get a job I wanted. Now I want a job, but still recovering burnout is tough, now it feels silly, all that talent it simply allowed me to survive bottom line. I don’t even know how I did it.

@EVDHmn @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

> ...it feels silly, all that talent it simply allowed me to survive bottom line. I don’t even know how I did it.

This really hits home. I'm only just now reaching a place where the positions I'm looking at actually match my abilities. It took so long to gather the experience necessary to prove my abilities to people, but now I'm finding that the challenge has only shifted to dealing with stress and burnout and misunderstandings that threaten my mental health and job security.

@hosford42 @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

Yeah I had no idea to what degree adhd and autism and trauma, that was reoccurring only almost a daily basis from fawn trauma response, to RSD, therapy allot, I kinda made self discovery my mission. To trying to live life again essentially. I learned to see life much more plainly now as long as I’m not involved or overwhelmed. My own stuff I’m still working on . Testing limits etc.

Loops 🍑

@EVDHmn @actuallyautistic @neurodivergence

@hosford42
> it took so long to gather the experience necessary to prove my abilities to people

As someone struggling with rejection for ‘inexperience’ I felt this too hard. I could prove it, if given half a chance. Just because I can’t show it doesn’t mean I don’t know it 😅