News from the @FreeBSDFoundation
"A frequent request from the #FreeBSD community and fan base is a curated list of laptops validated to run FreeBSD out of the box. To this end, we've recently begun discussions with one of our favorite laptop companies, Framework
Stay tuned!" (Edited out Puter from the bird site)
@frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
funny how non-profit organizations like freebsd's endorse venture capitalists like framework's. the "modularity" in the framework is a good step in hardware design, but what good does it do if it's just proprietary and closed hardware? how is it useful when it's centralized like any other manufacturer? oh, and i forgot the proprietary UEFI firmware on the non-chromebook models and non-removable batteries. the MNT Reform is a lot more promising.
@yunori @frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
I hope this is a troll comment, if not I need to say this:
Developing libre and open hardwares aren't easy, not only Framework but others like System76 or Pine64 also failed doing so.
Also if one company want to make their hardware, they have to go through various copyright and patent holders which is almost impossible.
Decentralized hardware making doesn't work, it costs too much even with open architectures like RISC-V
@yunori @frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
Also I doubt companies which focus on consumer-friendly and more sustainable hardwares (not libre/open though) like Framework or Fairphone have much revenue either, average people don't care much about them, also for them revenue isn't even their main priority so I don' think they're 'venture capitalist'.
Also persuading hardware companies to support free/libre and open source OSes like FreeBSD or GNU/Linux isn't bad though.
>"Also I doubt companies which focus on consumer-friendly and more sustainable hardwares (not libre/open though) like Framework or Fairphone have much revenue either"
that you can't claim about Framework, as they aren't transparent about their revenues, unlike Fairphone. comparing framework to fairphone is an insult to fairphone, fairphone is actually dedicated to manufacturing *fair* phones, while framework is just another attempt at capitalist green-washing.
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>"Also persuading companies to support free/libre and open source OSes isn't bad"
supporting linux out-of-the-box is almost always a silly joke. most, if not all, of the laptops that exist on this planet can boot up linux just fine. apple's proprietary joke of a laptop, albeit not easy, can boot up linux. and even if there's an issue, there's always a dedicated community maintained distro/repo backed by enthusiasts who reverse engineer the binaries and port it to libre OSs
@yunori
Yes, nearly every laptop can boot Linux with enough efforts, the main problems are if that is really optimal, worth our effort, or if we can afford against legal risks.
Many replacement libre drivers and firmware are there usually have their performance affected because those manufacturers artificially do so (*cough* NVIDIA *cough*), also some of them have been abandoned due to lack of interest of resources or struggling financially.
check this out: https://frame.work/fr/en/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-intel?tab=linux
this is not a company that has first-class support for linux in mind. this is one that treats libre software users and activists as second-class citizens. more than 2/3 of the stable linux distros have issues with the framework laptop. if you actually want to see a device that is meant for linux, look at the steamdeck. propietary and all. but it's MEANT for linux.
i have seen people install non-steamos distros on the deck and it works just fine. see: https://github.com/zulumon44/Kali-On-Steam-Deck/blob/main/README.md
i mentioned the steam deck because it was comparable to the framework laptop, when it comes to the philosophy. however, the MNT Reform has first-class linux support and ONLY ships with linux.
@yunori Well, you might think so because Framework is actually trying to convincing largee hardware manufacturers to stop anti-repair tactics throigh revenue and sale count and consumer satisfaction.
And to get the most users, they have to support Windows but Micro$oft has known as trying to make using Linux on Windows devices harder and using anti-competitive tactics.
it's not just "support windows", it's first-class support for windows. and no, they don't have to support proprietary OSs like windows.
@yunori Those tactics, even if Framework don't want still have to do if they still want to have Windows or risk losing most of their customers and failed their 'missions'.
I feel that Google can and may have done the same to Fairphone as well (Android is both proprietary and even AOSP aren't truly open nor fair competitive).
Manufacturers like System76, Tuxedo, ThinkPenguins, Pine64,... don't even use proprietary OSes in the first place so they are immune to those tactics
i don't want to reiterate what i already said. framework clearly treats linux users as second-class citizens. the fingerprint reader works fine on windows, but has issues on linux. manufactures like system76 have linux in mind and only ship with linux. framework? not even close. businesses are all about taking risks. if framework is not taking the linux-instead-of-windows risk. then they don't have linux in mind, simple as.
and framework's laptop is definitely not gonna be one that's hard to install Linux or *BSD on. it's got a ubiquitous x86 CPU, it's not introducing any sort of architecture that's obscure to the market. it's not like BSD got "ported to the framework laptop". if i ordered a no-name brand laptop off amazon, linux would work on it. this is why i used the term "venture capitalist", this is just merely a marketing scheme.
@natsume_shokogami companies will advertise every good little thing they do for the "community". look at fairphone, how they source their materials, the research behind their devices and most importantly, their transparency regarding all of the aforementioned reasons that lead me to believe that if a there's a chance that it's just a another form of green-washing, it's slim.
framework to the laptop market is like the nothing phone to the smartphone. unfair comparison, but you see my point.
@natsume_shokogami @frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
it's obviously not a troll comment, and i fail to see why you would assume so.
>"Developing libre and open hardwares aren't easy"
this is just absolute non-sense, i could literally say the same for any piece of libre and ethical code, this is no excuse. the hardware industry is pretty much controlled by big corpo and it is really hard to liberate manufactured electronics, but framework's design is not looking into that direction
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>"Decentralized hardware making doesn't work
you can't just claim that it doesn't work, end of discussion. the problem with laptops nowadays is the lack of design standards. the "modular gpu" is not a standard, and if framework is the only vendor for this kind of component then we go back to our same problem with older laptops. ones who are fine, but just need a component or two replaced, but that component isn't readily available or too expensive.
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@yunori @frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
Indeed it's extremely difficult, as it requires rebuild everything of hardware manufacturing, copyright and patent laws,... from the ground up; even though I think it's better to Framework to be more transparent and more cooperative with the community, I think of Framework is more of a saying of engineers against anti-consumer tactics in the industry and a pragmatic approach more than MNT Reform or anything.
framework never intended to be open or transparent about anything. it's a joke that their account is hosted on "fosstodon". they are treating linux users as second-class citizens.
there's no problem with freebsd making sure that their blobbed OS works on framework's hardware. the problem is the public endorsement. framework's "modular" approach is. if we ignore the non-removable battery, a nice step. however, they still have proprietary firmware and there are no signs that they ideologically motivated to follow the open-source philosophy, let alone the free-as-in-freedom one.
@patrizia technically the battery is "removable", in the same way the battery in every new iPhone or Samsung is removable.
batteries in older laptops just slid in and off you went. this one requires you to remove the top chassis and a couple of screws. look at older laptops' and fairphone's design for true "removable" batteries.
if you thought that they solder the battery to the mobo. i don't think any company does that, i have never even seen a soldered CMOS battery.
@yunori @patrizia I would argue that the framework battery is removable as is needed. It’s:
1. Easily removable
2. Fully supported (ie removing and replacing the battery is fully supported)
3. Has an OEM replacement affordably available.
Building a hard shell around the battery so it can slide in like it's 2002 isn't really needed with modern battery tech. Being a party pooper when a company works with open source communities isn’t helping anyone.
Why would you ever need to make a hard shell around the battery and complicated system to make it slide into place which will make a heavier and bulkier laptop, when the battery is easily replaceable if broken and the laptop is chargeable with basically any standard compliant usb C power bank?
there's a cost for modularity and accessibility ofc, that's hardware design 101. i am not gonna repeat myself as i have already explained why such batteries are shit design. you are repeating the same shit apple says about "making the phone thinner". at some point there's no point in going thinner, but that's another story for another day. the power bank trick won't work, at least efficiently, as you would need a beefy one with the proper wattage.
Yeah there is a cost to modularity that they pay for every part that makes sense to pay it for, for examplw the IO. If there was any reason to have a battery that is replaceable without opening the laptop that is not solved by other means better I am open to hearing it, but the argument "it's different then it's used to be so I don't like it" doesn't make sense.
As a user with a framework laptop and an external power bank I can say it works like a charm.
What is better?
- a battery that is way bigger then it needs to be, proprietary, can only be used for one specific purpose, oddly shaped, very expensive and made by just one company
- a standard battery you can buy from any vendor that can charge the laptop more than once and also charge other devices at the same time and can be charged outside the laptop.
I don't see any reason why one would want the first option even without the fact that batteries had to be smaller capacity to fit
@gloopsies power banks aren't standard batteries nor are they better. these 2 simply serve 2 different purposes. most people don't have a powerbank that can power a laptop, cuz they mostly buy a 35W one for their phone or their buds. now they have to invest in a new one and abandon the old one.
>made by just one company
that's a problem with intellectual property. a flaw in framework's licenses.
usb c as a universal port for all io is, like aforementioned, irrelevant to a removable battery
35W battery is more than enough to power a framework. And if you don't think that nobody is going to buy an external power bank why do you think someone would buy a more expensive battery that only works for a single laptop and nothing else?
If framework was to create the perfect battery that you want they would for sure open-source it like everything else they made, but why do you think anyone but them would make a battery for one laptop made by very little known niche company?
@yunori @frameworkcomputer @FreeBSDFoundation
As far as I know everything Framework themselves designed is fully open, unfortunately they can't do the same about hardware they source from their vendors. And what's the crap about batteries not being replaceable? They are easily replaceable and framework made newer batteries with higher capacities you can just slot into older Framework models if you just upgrade the firmware
I don't know what part do you need the source for but:
Framework hardware repository: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer
Framework battery upgrade information:
https://frame.work/products/battery?v=FRANBBAT01
Also source: I have a framework laptop and know how it works
CodeHead 
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