essemmarrFeb 2, 2024
Alex C has moved

When I was a smartass computer nerd in the 80s and 90s, an eternal theme was friends and family sheepishly asking me for tech support help, and me slowly, patiently explaining to them that computers aren't scary, they're actually predictable, they won't explode or erase your data (unless you really make an effort), and they operate by simple (if somewhat arcane) rules. Edit > Cut, then click, then Edit > Paste. Save As. Use tabs, not spaces. Stuff like that. Maybe not easy, but simple, or at least consistent and learnable.

But that's not true anymore.

User interfaces lag. Text lies. Buttons don't click. Buttons don't even look like buttons! Panels pop up and obscure your workspace and you can't move or remove them -- a tiny floating x and a few horizontal lines is all you get. Mobile and web apps lose your draft text, refresh at whim, silently swallow errors, mysteriously move shit around when you're not looking, hide menus, bury options, don't respect or don't remember your chosen settings. Doing the same thing gives different results. The carefully researched PARC principles of human-computer interaction -- feedback, discoverabilty, affordances, consistency, personalization -- all that fundamental Don Norman shit -- have been completely discarded.

My tech support calls now are about me sadly explaining there's nothing I can do. Computers suck now. They run on superstition, not science. It's a real tragedy for humanity and I have no idea how to fix it.

#HCI #UX #UI #okdoomer

Jan 26, 2024 at 3:50pmWeb
Show threadghorwoodโ†™โ†™โ†™Jan 26, 2024
@neuralex command line still works the way you expect it to. just sayin'.
Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024

@ghorwood Not on Windows!๐Ÿ˜‚ But of course I take your point.

But you know that's kinda like telling someone with a modern car that if they don't like touch panels and lane assist they can just build their own electric vehicle from scratch. Not gonna happen.

Show threadghorwoodโ†™โ†™โ†™Jan 26, 2024
@neuralex i don't know if it's *that* extreme, but still a valid point. i have had some success introducing the command line to some "kids these days", but they were already predisposed to exploration and 'adventure learning'.
Show threadAaronJan 27, 2024
@ghorwood @neuralex
"adventure learning"!!! I like that a lot. I teach middle school STEM and it's sad how many kids just want the "right" answer. But, every once in a while I get a kid who tests rockets in her culdesac or puts a chainsaw motor on his/her bicycle.
Show threadSirLichJan 28, 2024
@dullBoy @ghorwood @neuralex That was us as kids. My anecdotal solution? Give kids plenty of time with other kids just being kids. The lawn mower disassembly will happen soon enough don't worry!
Show threadOzzelot Jan 29, 2024
@ghorwood
@neuralex
I'm in the minority, but the command line feels crazy adventurous to me.
Show threadAiluridaeJan 28, 2024

@neuralex @ghorwood

I was going to say "PS is fine, just different than sh" but then I remember Get-WMIobject -> Get-CimObject -> Get-CimInstance... eh, it is still better than the GUIs for consistency

Show threadFrances LarinaFeb 15, 2024

@neuralex @ghorwood

"kinda like telling someone with a modern car that if they don't like touch panels "

Please don't get me started on what has happened to vehicle operational interfaces. I hung on to my prior vehicle far too long and jumped from never needing to take my eyes off the road to do anything because it could all be done by touch to not being *allowed* to change the album I'm listening to while the vehicle is moving. You know, because I might get distracted by the seven levels of nested scrolling menus.

Show threadTom ForsythJan 26, 2024
@ghorwood @neuralex Haha, not if you're running OneDrive it bloody doesn't.
Show threadhttps://bsky.halvasweb.spaceJan 27, 2024
@TomF @ghorwood @neuralex i hate how onedrive completely silently changes the behaviour of some user folders and you only find out when you're neck deep in resolving problems that arise from "your files are stored locally but not really good luck finding out what that means"
Show threadTom ForsythJan 27, 2024
@halva @ghorwood @neuralex Yeah, it's so close to being good tech, and then it does this shit. Less magic, please.
Show threadjesterchen42Jan 29, 2024
@ghorwood @neuralex Doesn't since systemd. ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™€๏ธ
Show threadSpace HoboJan 29, 2024
@ghorwood @neuralex Spoken by someone who has never had to use the modern 21st-century CLI tool known as `git`.
Show threaddorotaCJan 31, 2024
@ghorwood @neuralex Command line, sadly, sores rather low on discoverability.
Show threadI. L. VilliamJan 26, 2024
@neuralex I wish it was different ...
Show threadmarmartaJan 26, 2024

@neuralex I think your memory overestimates how reliable and bug-free things were. I was teaching people how to MS Office in the early 2000s, when most of them used the old 9x versions, and so much of my job was working around bugs and people's workaround for bugs.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of badness in modern UX (the thing I hate the most is making users stupider through oversimplification, so that people no longer understand what a file is), but it wasn't that great before.

Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024
@marmarta Oh yeah, I agree, MS Word's insane toolbars and overlapping mental models were a harbinger of doom. But at least all the nested modal dialogs and sub-sub-sub-settings panels didn't just go missing or blatantly lie about their function.
Show threadMarcus MรผllerJan 26, 2024

@neuralex @marmarta and, I mean, for most of the workflow, Office 97ff did work kind of consistently. Click the place you want letters to appear, type on keyboard, save to file, or print on paper. Feedback was immediate.

I just today paid twice, because the "confirm payment" button just does nothing for 10 seconds before forwarding to your "thanks for your top-up" page, and some process designer for Vodafone (small company you might not have heard of) didn't even avoid duplicate transactions.

Show threadMarcus MรผllerJan 26, 2024
@neuralex @marmarta I mean, whoever is telling frontend developers that "showing a mockup of the interface that they're waiting for to become interactive" is a good design pattern needs to be sat down and very strictly be explained what a "decoy" is, and how the emotional reaction of people to "bait and switch" is.
Show threadMarcus MรผllerJan 26, 2024
@neuralex @marmarta CC: @bernat , because he regularly reminded me that "showing one thing, then replacing that with another, not quite the same thing" is almost universally a negative surprise to the user
Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024

@funkylab @marmarta @bernat

yeah, seems โ€œThe Principle of Least Surpriseโ€ is lost knowledge nowadays ๐Ÿ˜ข

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

Principle of least astonishment - Wikipedia

Show threadVirginicusJan 27, 2024
@neuralex Following that principle, every YouTube link should be a rickroll.
Show threadNuncio Bitis ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆ ๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ธ ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ฆJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @funkylab @marmarta @bernat
I think Rust was written to be completely opposite to that principle.
Show threadDemi Marie ObenourFeb 12, 2024

@Nuncio @neuralex @funkylab @marmarta @bernat why do you say that?

(I like Rust but it has a learning curve.)

Show threadNick PhillipsJan 28, 2024
@funkylab @neuralex @marmarta FWIW we've recently discovered that Firefox protects you from bouncing on a submit button, while Chrome doesn't.
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @marmarta One thing I hated about Windows back then GUI wise were tiny non-resizeable dialogue boxes. I don't get it, scrolling a long list horizontally and vertically in a tiny tiny window. Resizable GUIs/layout managers were a thing back then, but not for Microsoft. No idea if it's even better now, I don't use Windows anymore.
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @marmarta Oh and "Do you really want to delete these 3 files?" instead of listing the files to confirm (like sane Linux GUIs do), and all the use of the default message boxes with long explanations which mislabeled button actually does what etc. brr
Show threadSnep Jan 27, 2024
@bloody_albatross @neuralex @marmarta Which Linux file manager actually does display a list of files you're about to delete instead of just ellipsing them into "n files will be deleted"? I can't remember ever seeing one doing that!
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 27, 2024
@snep @neuralex @marmarta Dolphin, and before that Konqueror. Is Gnome bad at that stuff? Well, I absolutely hate the GTK file chooser, so if their file browser is anything like that I'd rather use Windows 2000.
Show threadSnep Jan 30, 2024
@bloody_albatross @neuralex @marmarta Interesting! On my KDE installation, emptying the trash with 2 files in it does just say "Do you want to permanently delete all items from the Trash?" instead of listing the files, however enabling the confirmation for putting stuff in the trash, that does show a list of files. Seems like even software on Linux is rather inconsistent in when and how to list files that will be removed ๐Ÿค”
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 30, 2024
@snep @neuralex @marmarta Hm yeah. I never use the trash (always Ctrl+Del), so I didn't even know that.
Show threadAlaric Snell-PymJan 27, 2024
@bloody_albatross @neuralex @marmarta ahhh, and the classic "Are you sure.you want to cancel this operation? [ Ok ] [ Cancel ]" ambiguity: which button cancels the cancelling?
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 27, 2024
@kitten_tech @neuralex @marmarta Yes, even Thunderbird (or was it Mozilla/Netscape Mail back then?) had such a message box, and that doesn't use standard Windows message boxes. They wrote that themselves from scratch like that! (But that was probably over 20 years ago. Can't remember when exactly, but just something about canceling something in a Mozilla based email client.)
Show threadMathias PanzenbรถckJan 27, 2024
@kitten_tech @neuralex @marmarta In short: Always label buttons with what they're actually doing, e.g. for the confirmation of canceling an account setup there should be the buttons:
[ Cancel Account Setup ]
[ Continue Account Setup ]
And not:
[ Ok ] [ Cancel ]
Show threadPseudo NymJan 27, 2024

@bloody_albatross @neuralex @marmarta

I still encounter this on web based SaaS applications, and I just don't understand

Show threadJernej SimoncฬŒiฤ ๏ฟฝJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @marmarta And didn't move stuff around while you were clicking on it. Nowadays you apparently must wait around half a minute before the UI settles, and then after clicking anything, you again have to wait before it rearranges again.
Show threadgunstickJan 27, 2024
@marmarta @neuralex oh, yes. The bugs got replaced by unuseable UI. Why not remove the bugs and keep the useable UI? I bet that would have made people too happy.
Show threadJessamynJan 26, 2024
@neuralex I did tech support then and I do it now. Back then it was learning the basics, muscle memory, selecting something and then doing an action on it, what the "action items" were. Today it's so much password managing mainly, and keeping track of where your stuff is. Avoiding dark patterns as you're wandering the maze of getting to your stuff. How to sift through the BS in search engine results to get to what you want. Figuring out "whose fault" a certain error is. Whole new world.
Show threadLisPiJan 27, 2024
@jessamyn @neuralex Corposcum are to blame, as are the fools following the dark patterns they purposely & maliciously introduced without recognizing them for what they are (Gnome is very fond of this).
Show threadSabine Emden has moved.Jan 26, 2024
@neuralex I used to tell my mom her computer wouldnโ€™t burst into flames, until she told me one day her monitor had started to smolder. Fortunately, she had been at home when that had happened and only the monitor had been harmed (or harmed itself?).
Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024
@sabineemden Ha! Sounds like she really did make an effort.๐Ÿ”ฅ
Show threadsahqonJan 26, 2024
@sabineemden @neuralex I had one graphics card and two psus burst into flames in maybe two decades, so that's a blatant lie.
Show threadSabine Emden has moved.Jan 26, 2024
@sahqon @neuralex Can we say misconception? I didnโ€™t know that could happen. But Iโ€™ll admit there was also a lack of compassion for my mom.
Show threadsahqonJan 26, 2024
@sabineemden @neuralex Tbh unless it's a really shitty knockoff (which the first psu was), it should not happen to anything in the "office computer" category. These were gaming rigs, and also really shitty power grid (I'm on ups now). Something to note that the second psu (1000 watt monster) was supplying uninterrupted power to the running Skyrim while on fire, until I turned everything off normally. Then I ordered a new one, and a colleague "borrowed" my smoky one "for a quick test" and used it for a few months afterwards (no longer on fire, just smoking), until he got the money for a full new rig. Begged him not to and told him I'm not responsible if he burns his flat down or gets lung cancer. Madman.
Show threadNorman WilsonJan 27, 2024
@sabineemden @neuralex Somewhere in Florida, a politician is blaming that on CRT.
Show threadCautionWIP (he/him) ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€๐ŸŒˆ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ๐Ÿ•ŽJan 27, 2024
@sabineemden @neuralex CRTs were a lot more susceptible to accidental shenanigans, to be fair. I can recall more than a couple of people smoking their machines by setting the refresh rate too high. So very glad that canโ€™t happen anymore.
Show threadtechnicatJan 26, 2024
@neuralex The original Mac was a revelation to me about not just prettiness but a consistent and self-explanatory UI (notwithstanding Steve Job's insistence on a one-button mouse) and the original Human Interface Guidelines sat on my shelf for two decades. Now it's as if they set it on fire.
Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024

@technicat Same here! I devoured the original "phone book" HIG from cover to cover; every paragraph was a delight, every diagram a crisp example of the concept.

Unfortunately some blame for the UI conflagration falls on Steve himself for lionizing Jony Ive. He was great in hardware but his minimalist ethic backfired when they let him redesign all the software too after Jobs died. Flat UIs suck; humans weren't built to swipe clean screens, but to grab and twist and pull and hold knobs and dials and buttons and get our hands dirty, and push until we feel resistance. #skeuomorphism ftw๐Ÿ˜

(That's my two cents, anyway, happy to be corrected by people closer to the story.)

Show threadMike WolfinbargerJan 26, 2024

@neuralex @technicat I mind flat a lot less than I mind inconsistency and non-responsiveness.

I think Jony was aiming for the conceptual unification of hw and sw, instead of sw being something presented on the hw. It's just a physical device, but one that morphs contextually to my current need.

There's an elegance in that approach that invokes Bang & Olufsen. But the touch-sensitive "buttons" on a Beocenter let me know that Iโ€™d touched them, and they didn't jump around for no apparent reason.

Show threadtechnicatJan 26, 2024
@jmwolf @neuralex the problem I have with the newer buttons is you can't tell if they're buttons or labels, except maybe from the tint, so you just have tap to find out (and just tapping around is how I end up speed-dialing spammers on the recent calls list who thought that was a nice feature). And the disappearing scrollbars have caused me a lot of problems where I don't realize there's more content off the screen. Basically, the idea of affordances are out the window, and also consistency - simple example I run into all the time: in the Finder you go to the File menu to group items under new folders, in Xcode it's in the context menu, so half the time I look for it in the wrong place. There are more authorative complains from the original mac interface team, e.g. https://www.fastcompany.com/90338379/i-wrote-the-book-on-user-friendly-design-what-i-see-today-horrifies-me
I wrote the book on user-friendly design. What I see today horrifies me

Designs that make it easier for elderly people often are of equal value for younger people. In fact, for everyone. Help the elderly, and the results will help many more, including yourself, someday.

Fast Company
Show threadDJDarrenJan 26, 2024
@technicat Opened that article to a pop up inviting me to allow them to send notifications to my desktop. Beautiful. @jmwolf @neuralex
Show threadAlex C has movedJan 26, 2024
@DJDarren ๐Ÿ˜ฑ
Show threadMike WolfinbargerJan 26, 2024
@neuralex @DJDarren Lol. Behold the Open Web.
Show threadtechnicatJan 26, 2024
@DJDarren @jmwolf @neuralex I don't get that but I hate the autoplaying videos.
Show threadMike WolfinbargerJan 26, 2024

@technicat @neuralex Yes, it's vitally important to use tint to indicate clickability, which was anathema to the HiG back in the day. And I hate the feeling that if I can just dance good enough, the UI will notice me and reward me with a scroll bar.

If there's a balance between Don Norman's visual affordances and Ed Tufte's computer administrative debris, Apple's recent thinking is tilted strongly toward the latter.

Show threadMatt HellerJan 27, 2024
@jmwolf @technicat @neuralex I just check the little box that tells my Mac to always show scroll bars. ๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ
Show threadMike WolfinbargerJan 27, 2024
@mh @technicat @neuralex tbh, Iโ€™d forgotten that was there.
Show threadRev. Bussy Body of The Church of America MLM and Shooting ClubJan 29, 2024
@jmwolf @neuralex @technicat i suspect the flatness contributed to a lot of limiting the affordances in the heads of the designers themselves which led to the inconsistency and nonresponsiveness
Show threadRobert Kist ๐Ÿ‡ฆ๐Ÿ‡น๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฌJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @technicat flat UIs and low contrast color schemes are a nightmare. My eyes suck but I'm far away from being high-contrast-theme blind, and I really have a hard time, esp. with Win10's flat UI. Win11 is a bit better in this regard.
Show threadWolf480plJan 27, 2024
@neuralex @technicat bring winamp skins back