When I graduated as an engineer, a friend told me "How do you feel entering a plane when you know that people like us build it".
I’ve worked several years in the automotive industry and saw how software was done there.
When the 737-MAX crashed, I entered into the rabbit-hole and built a really good understanding of the software issue.
The results are:
- I don’t board a boeing plane anymore.
- I avoid cars as much as I can.
- I be sure to recommend cars with the less possible software.
@Danieldaimiaochen @panegyrique @ploum
> the degree of complexity exceeds the limit of human’s rigor.
It can. But we know how to build robust reliable software systems
But they are much more expensive than half hearted rubbish with a nice UI
@tnt : I admit that there’s no particular reason why Airbus would be better.
But the 737-MAX decision to decide to fix the structural imbalance resulting from bigger engines with a software messing with pilot’s control in order to not have to go to the certification process of a new plane is completely criminal.
While everything else I saw in the automotive industry was pure incompetence (to a level that no coder can even imagine)
@ploum @tnt Sadly some of us can and did see into the automotive world, and whilst it was dire, it was actually a lot better than most software 8(
A certainly large automotive company some years back said Tesla was doomed because a tech company learning how to make cars was much harder than a car company learning to do software. Tesla were like "watch this space", although the cybertruck does appear to be a valiant attempt to prove the car company right.
@tgeusch @vriesk @ploum @tnt Specifically, my understanding was that they didn't have room to extend the landing gear - they fold into the midline of the plane with barely enough room for a significant structural component between them, and they can't be moved further out on the wings without getting into the engine thrust.
“You don't have to train a specific set of pilots for the MAX” was a worthwhile goal. It just should have been abandoned once it became obvious that it was impossible to do safely.
@MalteH @ploum I think the sweet spot is around 2005-2010? You get the troubles of finding replacement parts after a while+cost😟.
I've been car free for some years now and I work in the railway industry. Boy we've got enough problems already to wish software doesn't get to far but I don't see why we would be spared, with the usual 25y delay on car/aviation industry.
Did you see the story of a manufacturer creating false failures on its trains to get maintenance contract? https://www.railway-technology.com/news/the-story-of-the-great-polish-train-hack/
People in the future will view Internet of Things the way we view DAT and 8-track, but more tragically.
@ploum Every computer security person I knows has no smart devices or appliances on their network. Same thinking same theory.
The car thing is becoming interesting - one of the reasons people are increasingly giving for avoiding an EV is privacy/software.
I know for a fact large slices of the financial sector is powered by extremely janky software. It's damn miracle it works as well as it does.
@ploum As a working software engineer, I worry more about the climate impact of my flight than the software, and as for cars, I worry more about distracted drivers than software bugs.
Sure, nearly all software has bugs, but most of the ones that really matter get fixed.
Software engineering is all about finding bugs, designing your tests and procedures to prevent the worst bugs, and figuring out how to fail safely if something goes wrong.
Obviously, that doesn't always happen. But it can.
@ploum That being said, I don't trust computerized voting machines either. Voting is unique: it's hard to test realistically, and if it goes wrong, it can spoil millions of people's lives.
As I see it, computerized counting of paper ballots may be the safest practical system for voting. (Because you can count them by hand if necessary. And because if you're trying to fudge the count, you have to make matching changes to both the computer and manual counts.)
@ploum My favorite talk is "Preventing the collapse of civilization" by Jonathan Blow. It puts "software sucks in everything" which we all more or less feel into the really big picture of history and technology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko
Ironically, it was on a game developer conference. But the points he makes are still valid across the entire field.
@ploum worse than that: the 737-max was trusted by the FAA which is trusted by most aeronautical regulations agencies in the world (ie if FAA trust a plane, most agencies do not do extra assessments).
Basically any aircraft that was first trusted in US by FAA is "as secure" as the boeing 737-max ;-)
The recent issues are changing this a bit, but slowly...
@ploum There really needs to be a new car company created from the ground up with minimalism and safety as core goals.
No data mining, no smart anything. Doesn't have LTE or a GPS or a single LCD panel. Anything that has to be computerized or fly by wire triple modular redundant including sensors, processors, and actuators.
Modern EV drive train.
Steering purely mechanical, direct linkage to wheels. Ditto for emergency brake.
Multi stage brake pedal: press a little bit and it triggers regenerative braking (under software control obvs) via redundant sensing. Press further and a mechanical / hydraulic linkage kicks on the normal brakes. Floor it fully and it hard cuts off the battery from the drive train as well just in case the motor controller went haywire.
Throw in all the sensors you want for improved situational awareness but don't connect to controls. Let the driver drive. There's a reason TCAS doesn't link to the autopilot or anything.
@ploum I work in infosec and have looked at lots of automotive and some aviation software.
I commute to work on a bicycle.
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