ploumJan 24, 2024

When I graduated as an engineer, a friend told me "How do you feel entering a plane when you know that people like us build it".

I’ve worked several years in the automotive industry and saw how software was done there.

When the 737-MAX crashed, I entered into the rabbit-hole and built a really good understanding of the software issue.

The results are:

- I don’t board a boeing plane anymore.
- I avoid cars as much as I can.
- I be sure to recommend cars with the less possible software.

Show threadtntJan 24, 2024
@ploum Watch a bunch of the Mentour Pilot videos .... then you won't want to board airbus either 😅
Show threadploum

@tnt : I admit that there’s no particular reason why Airbus would be better.

But the 737-MAX decision to decide to fix the structural imbalance resulting from bigger engines with a software messing with pilot’s control in order to not have to go to the certification process of a new plane is completely criminal.

While everything else I saw in the automotive industry was pure incompetence (to a level that no coder can even imagine)

Jan 24, 2024 at 10:07amWeb
Show threadThe Penguin of EvilJan 24, 2024

@ploum @tnt Sadly some of us can and did see into the automotive world, and whilst it was dire, it was actually a lot better than most software 8(

A certainly large automotive company some years back said Tesla was doomed because a tech company learning how to make cars was much harder than a car company learning to do software. Tesla were like "watch this space", although the cybertruck does appear to be a valiant attempt to prove the car company right.

Show threadferricoxideJan 24, 2024
@etchedpixels @ploum @tnt

There's more than a few reasons that the ASICs in cars are a couple generations behind "latest".
Show threadMartin JostJan 24, 2024
@ploum @tnt
And then - as far as I understood - use one pivot tube to measure airspeed for that
I always assumed for critical sensors there are (at least) three for a 2 out of 3 majority decision(?)
Show threadNot a Spring OnionJan 24, 2024

@godot @ploum @tnt

Aside from "You can have a lamp in the cockpit that tells you if MCAS is engaging (also a button), but it costs extra".

People buying airplanes: Extra costs? Hell no.

Show threadploumJan 24, 2024

@godot @tnt : pivot tubes also fail. Even when there’s three of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia

Show threadtntJan 24, 2024
@ploum @godot Or somehow you forget to remove all the "Remove Before Flight" covers from them. See Malaysia Airlines Flight 134 .
Show threadHabrokJan 24, 2024
@godot @ploum @tnt This detail to me sounded suspiciously like "if we use more than one sensor, then the system could be viewed as safety-relevant with all the consequences like certification, mandatory pilot training etc., so it's better if we only attach one sensor."
Show threadMartin JostJan 24, 2024
@Habrok42 @ploum @tnt This also shows the airspeed to the.pilot. MCAS or not: In my understanding this is security relevant. [But I'm no airplane expert - can someone better on the matter comment?]
Show threadHabrokJan 24, 2024
@godot @ploum @tnt Yes, the pitot tubes and the sensors for the angle of attack are security relevant and therefore redundant sensors are mounted. Autopilot and other systems can use all the sensors and normally indicate if the values of the sensors differ too much so the flight crew can work out which sensor is faulty and should be disabled. But MCAS only used one AoA sensor, trusted this one blindly and could not be switched to another sensor.
Show threadvriesk (Jan Srz)Jan 24, 2024
@ploum @tnt I keep on wondering though - if the issue was about ground clearance (was it?), why didn't they just extend the landing gear?
Show threadTimo GeuschJan 24, 2024
@vriesk @ploum @tnt That has certification implications and may require pilot training. One of the big selling points of the Max series was that Boeing apparently promised that pilots wouldn’t need additional training and certification for the new models.
Show threadploumJan 24, 2024

@tgeusch @vriesk @tnt : which is the criminal part. Trying to workaround physics with software.

And, guess what, those planes are now back flying with what seems to be only cosmetic changes.

It’s cheaper to have some crashes than do proper fixes when you are too big to fail.

Show threadRAOFJan 25, 2024

@tgeusch @vriesk @ploum @tnt Specifically, my understanding was that they didn't have room to extend the landing gear - they fold into the midline of the plane with barely enough room for a significant structural component between them, and they can't be moved further out on the wings without getting into the engine thrust.

“You don't have to train a specific set of pilots for the MAX” was a worthwhile goal. It just should have been abandoned once it became obvious that it was impossible to do safely.

Show threadHadiJan 24, 2024
@tnt @ploum now you are talking about incompetency in automotive industry, not its software particularly. Maybe you should recommend no car in your third point above.