a hopeful socialist@specked why won't the abolitionists support my apartheid state? So confusing! Show me the leftists that are literally saying "oh yeah I full heartedly endorse Hamas and their stated islamist ideology" oh wait they aren't. At worst, they're demonstrating a poor understanding of #InternationalRelations and downplaying their actions. Its still fair to acknowledge these actions exist in response to an ongoing campaign of oppression for which Israel is responsible for.
Martin Kostera@Old Major
apartheid state
Oh honey, learn basics.
Your "apartheid" in IDF:
#^https://libera.site/photo/109cecfe-5015-4f08-8ffb-ff42b3f53990-1.jpg
#^https://libera.site/photo/5f2f2c24-7584-4ff7-ac91-05a00dff97b6-1.jpg
#^https://libera.site/photo/a22d2219-af55-40db-84e0-2cb1bdd274fd-1.jpg
BTW, list of countries where communism worked:
apartheid state
Oh honey, learn basics.
Your "apartheid" in IDF:
#^https://libera.site/photo/109cecfe-5015-4f08-8ffb-ff42b3f53990-1.jpg
#^https://libera.site/photo/5f2f2c24-7584-4ff7-ac91-05a00dff97b6-1.jpg
#^https://libera.site/photo/a22d2219-af55-40db-84e0-2cb1bdd274fd-1.jpg
BTW, list of countries where communism worked:
@martin wow! I didnt know that these three pictures have single handedly ended the second class citizenship that Arab Israelis live through and also apparently repealed all the laws controlling Palestinian freedom of movement while ALSO dismantling all the illegal west Bank settlements. There's a law requiring all Israeli citizens join the IDF, so that would still apply to the Arab citizens...
@martin ...not to mention the roads that Palestinians aren't allowed to drive on, the disproportionate amount of Palestinians in prison or detained, the checkpoints they must pass through to go home or go to work
But I guess the UN is only right when it agrees with US foreign policy
Ramesh #NotGoingBack#Arabs stopped being "fellow citizens" when they rejected the peace deal after losing in 1948. And again, and again.
On #Oppression ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111586978798876855
On #FarLeft ideology see #BDSHorseshoe
>> 2nd class citizenship, laws controlling #Palestinian freedom of movement
I don't know which country you are from. Try doing there what #Hamas and Palestinians have done, and you will find yourself 2nd class freedom-less in no time. It's not #Israel, dude
HeavenlyPossum@[email protected] @rameshgupta @[email protected]
> “Try doing there what #Hamas and Palestinians have done…”
“The Palestinians” are not an amorphous and undifferentiated corporate body. One Palestinian person does not accrue responsibility for what another Palestinian person has done by virtue of belonging to the community of Palestinians. Just as Jewish people around the world don’t deserve anti-Semitism at all, much less on the basis of the behavior of the Israeli state, Palestinians do not deserve second-class status, violence, or oppression at all, much less on the basis of the behavior of Hamas.
But thank you for conceding that the Israeli state’s approach to the Palestinians amounts to collective punishment on the basis of membership in an ethno-nationalist group; that’s an important dynamic to understand.
PS—the Israeli state denied citizenship to the people it expelled in 1948 and their descendants—the vast majority of whom did not participate in any violence—because the entire point of ethno-nationalism is the (re)production of a homogenous polity. This is why the Israeli state cannot be both a *Jewish* state and a *democratic* state.
Without citations of credible published historical information that provides context, your whole argument is worthless.
I don't have time to respond with thoughtful comments once you've already exposed yourself as a member of a propaganda network I called out above.
I do not believe for a single moment that you’re actually interested in, or would read and actually consider, any historical source.
>> I do not believe for a single moment that you’re actually interested in, or would read and actually consider, any historical source
Dude! Have you followed my timeline?
Almost ALL of my toots come with citations and copious links to #history.
Yours (including the one above)? Never!
What are the sources you recommend I read to learn about and understand your unsourced claim that the Israeli state denied citizenship to Palestinians on the basis of their conflict and not because, as an ethno-nationalist project, the Israeli state sought ethno-nationalist homogeneity?
@HeavenlyPossum
>> What are the sources you recommend I read to learn about and understand your unsourced claim
The #projection is really STRONG here 😂 as that #unsourcedClaim was YOURS, not mine
In any case, if you want to learn about the roots of the #Arab-#Israeli conflict, and since you ASKED for my recommendation, start here ➡️ https://mastodon.social/@rameshgupta/111468900312146738
Then come back with links to specific toots with your objections & links to support your arguments before expecting anything more from me
This claim
“Arabs stopped being "fellow citizens" when they rejected the peace deal after losing in 1948. And again, and again”
is unsourced in your post above.
Which part of this book should I read to learn about your claim? A chapter, a page number, a general section of the book?
Dude, nice sleight of hand, changing which claim was unsourced — From "Israeli state denied citizenship to Palestinians" to “Arabs stopped being 'fellow citizens'"
I laid the food on a silver platter for you. Don't expect me to spoon-feed you 🙄
One can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink.
One can lead another to a book, but cannot make another read.
Even if one can make another #read one cannot make another #think.
Which part of the book contains the information you’re claiming it contains? Surely you’ve read it and can refer me to the part I should read, the way citations actually work?
>> Surely you’ve read it and can refer me to the part I should read
If I had not read it, there would not be such a huge body of toots referencing various details of #Arab-#Israeli conflict that I sourced from that book.
#LazyClown wants me to spoon-feed him instead of lifting a finger himself or firing a neuron on his own 🤡
I found the full text on the internet archive and searched for the terms “citizen,” “citizens,” and “citizenship.” These searches did not return any discussion in the text of the Israeli state’s decision making about Arab citizenship in or after 1948 (which makes sense, since the book appears to be primarily about the global politics in the lead up to 1948).
What am I missing? Is there another term I should search for that would reveal the information you claim it does?
>> Is there another term I should search for that would reveal the information
No, #LazyClown 🤡
Just ask #ChatGPT to summarize the book for you and find the answer you are looking for.
I don't have time to spoon-feed you
So it’s not there. I suspected you were using citations like talismans rather than as actual sources of information, and your obfuscation confirms this for me.
And just like magic, you drew that conclusion without even reading a single page in the book 🤡
I told you that I read multiple pages of the book, but did not find any that discussed your claim, using search terms that would seem most relevant. When I asked you where else I should look or what else I should search for, you refused.
This generally isn’t how citations work, but it is how things work when people use references as talismans, hoping that simply *displaying* the citation will be enough to win an argument, regardless of the actual content of the referenced work.
Billiglarper@HeavenlyPossum @rameshgupta That's only partially true, isn't it? Israeli-Arabs make up about 20% of Israel's citizens. And about a quarter of these are from families that got internally displaced in 1948.
So the "ethno-nationalist" label seems to be a bad fit. Heck, given the diverse roots of Israel's Jewish population, "mono-ethnic" doesn't even apply there.
For a big part of the Jewish population, the goal seems to be simply to live in a majority Jewish state, for fear of antisemitism.
Homogeneity is always an ideal, not something the state can ever practically achieve, and it’s always *fictional* in the sense of social construction.
The Israeli state has always been explicitly ethno-nationalist, from its initial founding as a state for the Jewish people to Netanyahu’s nation-state law.
@HeavenlyPossum @rameshgupta Nope, doesn't add up.
@HeavenlyPossum @rameshgupta So you are saying that attacks on Israelis are inherently wrong? Finally something we can agree on.
Yes, attacks on Israeli civilians are as illegitimate as attacks on Palestinian civilians.
Helgi Crookehorne@HeavenlyPossum @rameshgupta @billiglarper all that Hamas ever achieve is enable extremists like Ben-Gvir who them call for the same as Hamas, carpet bomb everybody in there and such