Mastodawn

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@elCelio @pmroman
I agree that the majority have 0 interest in making the EU work better (it would be a perk, if only someone else did the work and the vision thingy and ONLY as long as it doesn't inconvenience them)... BUT. That might turn out for the better under the right circumstances (and with vastly improved personnel - but that's on us, the voters).

I think we NEED more, not less, politics. Not the way Orban does it, but these clashes of interests are normal.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@elCelio @pmroman
I think they started paying attention to the EU and fighting regularly about EU matters because the EU started to matter more and more. Sure, most of them have no interest in geopolitics (or anything past the next elections), for example, but just because they're not interested it doesn't mean that geopolitics isn't interested in them.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio Right, exactly like in any other elected legislative territorial chamber, their next election. Now, want to improve things? Start with a functional parliament of no more than 425 members.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
I agree. Where do I vote for it?

I'd vote for that.
The EUCO won't let me, they block any sniff of a reform.

pmroman 🇪🇺

@Veza85UE @elCelio You vote in your state, each time you vote in the general election. Historically Senates are not by direct election.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
No, sorry: it here means EU reform. I DO want to improve things. Where do I vote for it? Where's the reform initiative I can endorse?

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio Well, vote for me, if I ever run 😀

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
Can't because we have no transnational lists, the Council won't let me. 😔

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio All it takes is me moving! See? With 400 members, a single member would have a lot more power, now they are individually irrelevant.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
Member states governments will not let them have power, you can cut it down to 45 or 27, the Council works as intended for an era in which is interesting to think of *2009* as its starting point... boy did they not cover themselves in glory with the financial crisis either. And they must have thought THAT was was hard. Hah. Welcome to the Accelerationist era. You won't have time for merkelling anymore.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio It will get better, more integrated. Mr. Draghi is right, the current structure is at the end of its useful life, I believe there will be a fully functional structure by 2050-60, of course I won't be here to celebrate.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio It takes time, it will take about 100 years to be settled, since the 1950's, which is far shorter than the time it took for most democracies to consolidate and set up.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
"settled" Even the verb sounds so luxurious 😄 for someone like me who started to pay attention during the austerity era (but only vaguely, getting poorer when you're that young feels different). If they continue with the same insouciance, we'll be lucky if any of us are still around by the 2050s and have enough soil and water to eat. OK, I'm exaggerating, but to me the personnel is subpar for the times. Though like I said, that's our fault.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio It will be ok, I'm sure of it.😀

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
"Mr. Draghi is right, the current structure is at the end of its useful life"

Glad to hear he agrees with me. 😆 It's certainly felt that way to me the more attention I paid to it.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE The diagnosis isn't the problem, moving forward is, but they'll find a way, they always did.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman It's a nice sentiment to have for a high-level discussion, I'm reveling in it. On the ground, the effects of getting it as wrong as they did for the financial crisis has devastating effects on entire generations and families who pay the price. I'm not surprised that many of my generation have not forgiven them. Except most aren't aware of who has the power, so the resentment transfers onto a nebulous "the EU" in Brussels.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE That's why it's very important to push for EU focused journalism and education. My generation suffered too, I know folks who bought into the private retirement schemes and have now a total value lower than the monthly pension they expected. Many have to sale their houses to survive after retirement. Their handling was catastrophic, and missed a chance for great infrastructural investments, the "no debt" obsession is irrational.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman I've had this open in another tab for 3 days. I'm not even sure I want to read it, I may need to buy alcohol first.

https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2023/12/13/lallemagne-contre-leurope-1/

L’Allemagne contre l’Europe ? | Le Grand Continent

Le plus grand paradoxe de l’Union se trouve en Allemagne. Alors que le pays est l’un des plus attachés à la construction européenne, il est aussi l’un des plus grands adversaires de ce processus. De ses choix budgétaires à sa diplomatie, cette perspective nourrie retrace l’histoire de politiques qui ont affaibli l’Union et l’Allemagne. En creux se pose une question : est-il encore possible de changer de trajectoire ?

Le Grand Continent

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE That's the reason why I don't do tabs! LOL

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE An interesting French perspective, but a perception nevertheless. I don't agree with their analysis which appears focused on achieving a predetermined conclusion. Very french. Good read anyway.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman Bon, j'allais le lire en italien pour la pratique de la langue (j'aime les deux langues mais je ne lis pas aussi souvent en italien qu'en français), mais je vais m'en tenir au français pour le terroir.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE It's interesting, a good Friday before bed reading, the nightmares and all that!

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2023/12/13/lallemagne-contre-leurope-1/

@pmroman, would you say more about

> I don't agree with their analysis

?

@Veza85UE, thank you for the link. What do you think about the analysis?

(I agree with the analysis. 🇨🇿 perspective.)

I want #MyEU conversation which is both pan-EU and "national". #BabelEU. #EnglishEU...

May I hear a reaction from #GermanyEU? (And #other places?)

L’Allemagne contre l’Europe ? | Le Grand Continent

Le plus grand paradoxe de l’Union se trouve en Allemagne. Alors que le pays est l’un des plus attachés à la construction européenne, il est aussi l’un des plus grands adversaires de ce processus. De ses choix budgétaires à sa diplomatie, cette perspective nourrie retrace l’histoire de politiques qui ont affaibli l’Union et l’Allemagne. En creux se pose une question : est-il encore possible de changer de trajectoire ?

Le Grand Continent

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste @Veza85UE To me, their analysis carries many of the French stereotypes regarding Germany. As an extremely centralized government, French analysts have a very hard time understanding the functioning of federal structures. Also France is a Presidential nation where the President has almost absolute power and is able to implement legislation regardless of the legislative. While all this nations share fundamentals, their systems are still very different.

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman, well, that might be true, but, without explanation why the #GermanyEU system produces such results, just describing it as a whole, from outside, it seems to me (🇨🇿) the article correctly present some strange and troubling behavior of the German system.

@osz, any comment from 🇩🇪 ?

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@OBabasch, any comment from 🇩🇪 ?

Ono Babasch 🇩🇪Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste

I am not sure that I have passed the trigger of the discussion...
In fact, a federal administration is often exasperating: the federal states are independent states that have ceded some sovereign rights.
With regard to the #EU (eu council), the federal government is responsible. But there is still the Commission and the Parliament.
A separation of powers I know very well.
Any specific question?

❍sz™ 🇪🇺🇺🇦🇬🇪Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste
I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I hope I don't miss the topic. I live in Germany, but I'm not German. I can only say that, for example, the measures to avoid debt and the denial of the use of the 60 billion for the climate are upsetting to many people in my environment and beyond my contacts. This also leads to some social tensions in the country. Some say Germany is slowing itself and its future down.
@pmroman

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman @abolitionniste
That's true, but having consensus-based politics is not an end goal in itself. It matters what the consensus *results* are too, no? And so this in particular also feels true to me (I don't speak German so I'm not as informed about their internal politics as I should be, but at EU level? Yeah, sounds about right...)

And other than the occassional frustrated economist or defence analyst, when you waddle in this EU consensus with them, it feels like talking to a cult.

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman @abolitionniste
OK, the server's not letting me attach screenshots, so I was referring to the Le paradoxe allemand first paragraph, up to là aussi avec le soutien de la grande majorité de sa population.

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

> Since European integration began, Germany has unquestionably been one of the countries in Europe, if not the country in Europe, most committed to this process, whatever the political hue of its government and with the overwhelming support of German society.

@Veza85UE @pmroman

1/2

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

> And yet, for several decades now, it is also the country that has regularly seriously jeopardised European integration by rigidly defending positions that undermine the Union and its future, whatever the colour of its government at the time and with the support of the vast majority of its population.

@Veza85UE @pmroman

2/2

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste @Veza85UE Overwhelming support of a complex society is an oxymoron, it only exists in the minds of the French ENA graduates. Commitment to EU integration is situational and conditioned to the society each governments represents, using absolutes diminishes the credibility of the analysis.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@Veza85UE @abolitionniste Indeed, consensus is a tool, not and end on itself, except if the consensus is required to achieve an agreement among institutions and/or nations. The level of the consensus is the issue, decisions by unanimity are not functional.

Jordan Maris 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 #NAFO Dec 17, 2023

@pmroman oh dear oh dear. I'm not a fan of this article at all. The German Constitutional court's rulings, while not ideal, are the least of Europe's problems.

The Conseil d'État deliberately misinterpreting CJEU rulings, however, is.

Moreover, the general attitude of France (my home country) is majorly problematic : essentially, it is their way or not at all.

We've seen this with Ukraine aid, where France has insisted the aid we provide should be made in the EU to boost fr defence industry.

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 18, 2023

https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2023/12/13/lallemagne-contre-leurope-1/

@jmaris wrote:
> oh dear oh dear. I'm not a fan of this article at all...

#GermanyEU #FranceEU #StatesEU... #MyEU #GeoEU... #WhatAreWeDoingHere?

@ashtime @OBabasch @pmroman @Veza85UE

L’Allemagne contre l’Europe ? | Le Grand Continent

Le plus grand paradoxe de l’Union se trouve en Allemagne. Alors que le pays est l’un des plus attachés à la construction européenne, il est aussi l’un des plus grands adversaires de ce processus. De ses choix budgétaires à sa diplomatie, cette perspective nourrie retrace l’histoire de politiques qui ont affaibli l’Union et l’Allemagne. En creux se pose une question : est-il encore possible de changer de trajectoire ?

Le Grand Continent

Veza85UE Dec 18, 2023

@abolitionniste @jmaris @ashtime @OBabasch @pmroman
Whatever about the article (yes, it's very French, yes I laughed by the end when évidemment France is a total failure in the EU and the national navel stinks). I hadn't even read it, I was responding with it as a read I wasn't looking forward to to this:

"the "no debt" obsession is irrational."

No amount of whataboutism about France or Poland or Malta will ever make that statement (and the 1 consensus paragraph in the article) less true.

Jordan Maris 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 #NAFO Dec 18, 2023

@Veza85UE that is fair enough! I agree that more flexibility is needed.

Veza85UE Dec 18, 2023

@jmaris We're less than 48 hours from the last ditch attempt Ecofin Zoom call for "SGP reform". As someone who tends to fall on the side of: "It really, really is the economy, stupid!" the article's description of the consensus paradox still feels true to me as I read in parallel SGP takes from long-suffering eurozone economists (some are Germans who are screaming into the consensus void) and whatever other countries' bad EU takes are of little consequence for this particular priority.

Veza85UE Dec 18, 2023

@jmaris I'm interested in why delusions grip entire political cultures, base to elite and back, with such fervour. As I said somewhere in my ramblings (and fully admitting my limitations, especially the language barrier), I give credit where it's due and try to parse what's behind different types of German brainworms. "Russia is just a friendly, reliable gas station" is a mercantilist, not cultural consensus. Once collapsed, damage to the bottom line was obvious and able to quickly change minds.

Veza85UE Dec 18, 2023

@jmaris The Schwabian housewife on the other hand...
I don't even know if there's an actual German consensus on including green investment expenditures in EU deficit reduction for bad, sinful, indebted countries. Abu Lindner polls at around 5%. So why does he get to try to unleash another fiscal djihad on the EU, this time in an environment requiring even BIGGER (climate) investments?
I suppose it's because debt is easier to demagogue on even to the wider electorate, not just his clientele, idk.

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 19, 2023

@Veza85UE writes:
> why delusions grip entire political cultures

What if "common delusion" is normal / usual state of big human societies? What if things like plurality, alternatives, rational discourse or politics thrive only in special circumstances? What if to keep these #ValuesEU #we have to do something different than what #we have been doing until now. My suggestion: continute conversation with @abolitionniste @ashtime @elCelio @jmaris @OBabasch @pmroman @Veza85UE

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 18, 2023

@jmaris Agreed, check my first reply to the toot mentioning the article.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio And don't discard the idea of a EU at 2, or even 3, speeds.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
I don't discard it, it sounds sensible to me depending on the execution. I think it was the underlying structure proposed by the group of franco-allemand expert group for EU reform. I was more interested in the rule of law parts of their report, but I remember the Communauté politique européenne as the outer circle.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE The outcome could surprise you, it wouldn't be the first time dossiers get back to the top of the pile.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman 0 trust in the Council(s) which means they can only surprise me in one direction. 😄

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE I don't share your skepticism, we shall see, better you shall see, by mid century 🙂

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio Seriously, the reform must be pushed by the Commission and the Parliament, the problem is such a gigantic parliament dilutes the power of individual members, and in the end, its power.