Ray Glass
65dBnoiseNo, you are not 'antisemitic' if you don't agree with what the right wing warmongering Israeli government is doing in #Gaza. Nor are you pro-Hamas if you care about Palestinians not being treated like subhuman and killed by the thousands. Nor are you anti-American if you don't agree with the hypocrisy of the US government's double speak. You are simply using your judgement to see through the enormous propaganda machine and trying to think like a human of the 21st century.
Hans-Cees 🍋🌲🦔🦦🐝🦋🐛🚅🇸🇳🇵🇾🇹🇬🇹🇲@65dBnoise @breadandcircuses yet you are an #antisemitism thinker if you deny the jewish state to arrest and trial #hamas
And if you claim all #Israeli land was stolen
Or if you claim #hamas are just freedom fighters
#justsaying
And if you claim all #Israeli land was stolen
Or if you claim #hamas are just freedom fighters
#justsaying
gabert
Charlie StrossAlternative (succinct) phrasing:
Governments that murder civilians are always wrong.
Catherine is not complacent@65dBnoise somewhere behind this is money. The fossil fuel resources off the coast of Gaza are an untold player in this hideous conflict.
Richard@65dBnoise Have you been accused of antisemitism? If so, please link to the actual conversation so we can see if you said something horrible that you are asking us to blindly accept your defense of, or whether we can join your public indignation over having been falsely accused.
I have seen too many contextless claims like this from people who are called out on actual antisemitism (e.g. "JEWS OWN THE MEDIA AND CONGRESS!") and get huffy about it. So supply context, please.
@richard_merren
LOL! My "defense"! What a distorted view of the world! Who are the "we" you seem to feel representing and be a judge for? Nobody asked you to accept anything, I'm not apologizing; I'm expressing an opinion.
I'm fed up with people asking others to prove they are not antisemites (note: not anti-racists) and with their manichaeistic view of the world. Reminds me of the good old days of McArthyism.
But in spite of that, I believe your question is genuine, so here is my reply:
1/2
@richard_merren
No, I have not been accused of antisemitism. Ever. I am not an antisemite; quite the opposite. Not anti-Israel, either. I'm just fed up with the hypocrisy and propaganda, as if people were incapable of using their brains or feel human, and ought to blindly follow propagandists.
Hope this is to your (plural) satisfaction (#Sarcasm intended as humor)
@65dBnoise So you are fed up with accusations of antisemitism yet you have never been accused of it. Got it.
@65dBnoise @Jeffrey_Smith with the cowardly "respond with a catty remark and block".
Erik Haugen@richard_merren @65dBnoise Not me or OP, but here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar#Remarks_on_AIPAC_and_American_support_for_Israel
I disagree with Omar on essentially every overton-window question, but it has to be ok to talk about money in politics.
@richard_merren @65dBnoise Or again with Tlaib and the "river to the sea" thing.
Naively believing that a single state one-vote-per-person will work out well for everyone doesn't make you an antisemite.
All this stumbling over each other to be as outraged as possible about things like these is probably not helpful.
@ech @65dBnoise "River to the sea" is historically a call to wipe jews off the map. It is painful to hear for many Jews, and using it means many jews can't stand with you. If your goal is inclusion, avoid it.
But to your larger point: yes, there are many things you can say that are NOT antisemitic, and it is entirely possible to criticize Israel without using antisemitic tropes. If you do that, then good on you. But pretending that it isn't widespread is dishonest and denies reality.
@richard_merren @65dBnoise The phrase is also used in good faith, though. roll with it.
I don't call for "river to the sea" because I believe it will end in disaster, but I recognize good faith in those who disagree with me.
I am not pretending antisemitism isn't widespread, I don't think anyone said that.
@ech @65dBnoise I would never, ever tell someone to "just roll with it" on a phrase that they have told me was long associated with ethnic cleansing of their family and friends. This is the slogan Hamas uses, and has always been associated with their goal of wiping Jews off the map. A few weeks ago the Hamas murdered my kids' camp counselor, and is currently trying to kill their cousins, and you think i'm going to "roll with it" with their catchphrase? What is the matter with you?
@richard_merren @ech
From the get go it appears that ad hominem attacks is your preferred mode of arguing. Please refrain from doing it. You've been warned.
Being the subject of the original post, one would expect that #warcrimes committed by the #Israeli army in #Gaza following the atrocities of #Hamas earlier which triggered the war, ~20k Palestinians killed, most of whom children and civilians, and the annihilation of Gaza, would be worth mentioning. At least once, in passing.
@65dBnoise @ech "You've been warned"? What are you threatening me with here?
And I haven't thrown out a single ad hominem attack. You just don't like being disagreed with. Get off your high horse.
As for your whataboutism: the original post was you complaining about being accused of antisemitism. And we tried talking about that, but you don't want to back up your straw man claim that too many people are calling other people antisemitic.
@65dBnoise @ech And you should note that I did not accuse you of saying anything antisemitic at all. You got huffy because I asked you what charges of antisemitism you were complaining about and you launched into insulting English teacher correction mode instead of giving any concrete examples of what drove you to complain.
@richard_merren @ech
My original and consequent posts argued against conflating war actions by the Israeli government/army with antisemitism, which is indeed a constant threat for Jews all over the world. I argued that conflating antisemitism with war actions and #warcrimes by #Israel, increases antisemitism and advances extreme right wing agendas which are inherently antisemitic and racist.
My original and consequent posts argued against conflating war actions by the Israeli government/army with antisemitism, which is indeed a constant threat for Jews all over the world. I argued that conflating antisemitism with war actions and #warcrimes by #Israel, increases antisemitism and advances extreme right wing agendas which are inherently antisemitic and racist.
@richard_merren @65dBnoise Point is, the catchphrase isn't just Hamas's. They use it in their charter, but the slogan is older than that and used by others with very different intentions.
I'm sorry for your loss.
@ech @65dBnoise The point is NOT that others use it with very different intentions. The point is that this slogan, both from Hamas as well as from the older uses, was a call for ethnically cleansing all Jews and eliminating Israel's existence. Yes, some people use it without bad intentions, but the same is true of "states rights" or "white lives matter". I would NEVER ask a black person to stand under a banner that says either of those, or be insensitive enough to ask them to "roll with it."
@richard_merren @65dBnoise You're totally wrong about "states rights" too. Lots of people like small local government. It's possible to have that opinion and simultaneously condemn slavery. The phrase is used a lot in that other context.
@ech @65dBnoise You are incredibly ignorant about what words mean to people other than yourself. It's a very selfish and privileged attitude.
JB@65dBnoise #Hamas and #bibi agree on one thing: 9.5m Israelis and 5.5m Palestinians are in a zero sum game, winner-take-all.
I am also convinced #netanyahu is all in on helping Trump win.
rexi@65dBnoise
is the question then, can you really be an anti-anti-Semite as you watch the the nation of Israel slowly suffocate itself on its own rhetoric; over decades gradually turning from oppressed into oppressor -- abandoning shared principles of equal justice and human rights?
friends don't let friends force apartheid.
@rexi
Yes you can. The notion of 'nation' includes Jews the vast majority of whom don't live in Israel. Antisemitism is racism. Israeli and US officials use 'antisemitism' as a proxy for everything Israel, and it's done intentionally, with their propaganda.
IMO, this leads to an increase in antisemitism by reaction to the #warcrimes committed by #Israel against civilians. It also leads to an increased influence of the far right, especially with people that don't give it too much of a thought.
Roger Gathmann@65dBnoise Actually, if you supported the Netanyahu goverment over the last ten years, you are objectively pro-Hamas. That government openly favored Hamas to split the Palestinians and put off the two state solution forever. The record is clear. No supporter of the current government of Israel has an excuse. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Hugh Ferguson
EmbraceBecoming@rogergathmann @65dBnoise Yeah, this mess is as much Bibi's fault as it is anyone's. That's one of perverse incentives in play, as long as the war continues Netanyahu can put off his own political reckoning, giving him an incentive to drag it out regardless of how many people die
AutisticMumTo3@65dBnoise
Well said
Well said
LJ@65dBnoise yes. This. Thank you.