Tom von ClefDec 1, 2023
Tim Chambers

Posting this quote from #BlueSky developer Paul Frazee, as it is one of my favorite posts from that platform and exactly how I feel about BlueSky and Nostr too. This is not zero-sum and as I see bridges forming (now between Masto-Nostr, soon between ActivityPub and Bluesky) am excited to see the bridges start to form.

cc: @activitypubblueskybridge

Dec 1, 2023 at 4:05pmWeb
Show threadTim ChambersDec 1, 2023
I say that even as I am deeply unclear still on how content moderation does or will really function at scale on either Nostr, or BlueSky and am concerned on that. But the bridges to here will make it so any Mastodon content admin all still function on our side just like they do now for any Fediverse account or post.
Show threadHelgeDec 1, 2023

I'm trying to convince people to distinguish between moderation and curation. I want to use moderation for what happens on an instance, and curation what happens between instances.

This is important here, because I think people building the bridges should be aware that they need to perform some level of curation. For example, for bluesky, a bridge builder should exclude all content tagged racist (I think that's what they named it).

Show threaddamonDec 25, 2023
@tchambers I’m not sure why you’re concerned about content moderation there as opposed to here when everything is manual here. Bluesky has content labels built into the platform, will offer moderation services via different providers and they use a company called Hive. I feel that’s more than what’s being done on Fedi. Nostr I completely agree with
Show threadTim ChambersDec 25, 2023
@Damon I’m unclear if content on AT can be *removed*, rather than just labeled …labels that end users may or may not filter. Or if one admin can remove then can another server admin has agency to fediblock if they disagree? If gab.com adopted AT could it be mass blocked or just partially labeled or filtered?
Show threaddamonDec 25, 2023

@tchambers It’s the same on the Fedi. It takes a coordinated effort to remove content. Most content is just hidden. Every users filters will be different just like here. Illegal content won’t typically make it past the filters. If Gab was on AT then the PDS would be blacklisted by the relay and their content sent after the block wouldn’t make it through. My understanding is that users will be able to block domains.

https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/4-13-2023-moderation

Composable Moderation

Show threadTim ChambersDec 25, 2023
@Damon I read this doc (maybe misread it?) as all about labeling and end user filters…not about removing content so no one regardless of filters see it.
Show threadch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soonDec 25, 2023
@tchambers @Damon is preventing people from seeing things regardless of filters a good thing? I thought the point of a federated network was to enable greater user freedom and interoperability. Like, at the very least it should be possible for users to opt out of individual moderation decisions made by admins, since sometimes they're made for petty personal reasons rather than being in the interests of their users.
Show threadTim ChambersDec 25, 2023
@ch0ccyra1n @Damon CSAM, spam, hate malware links,hate speech, threats, terrorist content, etc at the very least would be things as an admin I would posit need removing not just tagging….
Show threadch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soonDec 25, 2023
@tchambers @Damon my point is that oftentimes admins are little dictators and feel they should have absolute reign over their users. The fediverse implementations as they exist right now seem to reflect this idea, as they give admins total control with basically no accountability. I would prefer being able to opt-in to some things, like for example if an instance admin decides to block a transfem instance (because this keeps happening), as a user I would want to be able to bypass the admin's block without having to migrate instances which is currently a bit of a messy process. There's a friend of mine who's on an instance that blocks my instance and we're unable to interact with or follow each other because of that, and this is the exact situation that I think needs a solution, because as it stands, implementations of moderation in fediverse software make the false assumption that all admins act in good faith.
Show threadFinchHaven sfbaDec 25, 2023

@ch0ccyra1n

Trying to figure out why I keep seeing this thread when I don't follow any of the recent participants and it's not using any hashtags I Follow

Turns out that it's being boosted by "AP-AT-Bridge Group" -- which I *do* Follow

Damn Groups are spammy reply bots that saturate the Home feed of everyone who Follow them -- even when they're not participating in a particular thread, or even when a particular thread has wandered *way* off-topic

Not at all the first time this has happened, either

Solution: Unollow spammy reply-bot group @activitypubblueskybridge

ahhh...

Timeline cleanse

cc @tchambers @Damon

Show threadTim ChambersDec 25, 2023
@ch0ccyra1n @Damon You are right - in Masto nets the main accountability is users of the server can vote with their feet and leave.
Show threaddamonDec 25, 2023
@ch0ccyra1n I agree with this stance absolutely It is unfortunate. I disagree with the outsized importance of instances on the user experience. Account migration isn’t smooth enough to encourage users to continue to move if they disagree with admins. I do know Pixelfed is allowing users to unblock domains that are blocked on an instance level and Mastodon may follow that
Show threadch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soonDec 25, 2023
@Damon I agree with you on that point on account migration. It absolutely is too messy of a process right now to be viable for most users, especially when only some software allows for migrating posts. I'm definitely excited to see Pixelfed implementing a feature like that as it takes some power away from admins. From what I've read on it, it seems to be pretty much exactly what I'd want to see.
Show threaddamonDec 25, 2023
@ch0ccyra1n Yes, illegal content. That’s due to legal liabilities. Outside of that it’s up to the user. That’s why I like what Bluesky is doing. There system is empowering the users to determine the content they want to see, as long as it’s legal
Show threaddamonDec 25, 2023
@tchambers sorry I should’ve made clear that was in addition to my comments. Ultimately, outside of the platform filters it boils down to the admins & then users. Content that isn’t blacklisted & makes it past filters can be deleted by admins and users. As far as admins blocking other PDS I’m not sure but I do know users can still get access to that blocked content if they wanted. The illegal content wouldn’t typically make it past the platform filters
Show threadTim ChambersDec 25, 2023
@Damon Yes, if one admin can’t “fedi block” or something like that from another admin they disagree with over deleting content on that other server, not sure then how that isn’t a big loophole. Or wouldn’t same apply to multiple relay owners? And am unclear who manages accounts but think that is at the PDS level? If so then same question for fediblocking other server’s accounts. May be solid answers to those questions but that’s where I’m blurry.
Show threadskalt711Dec 1, 2023
@tchambers @[email protected] Well, I'm rooting for Misskey! ​​
Show threadChampagneDec 1, 2023

@skalt711
Right, but the point is Misskey would benefit from the same AT-AP bridge that Mastodon would because it is based on the same protocol.

Misskey is one of the "baby turtles" Paul Frazee is referring to.

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge

Show threadskalt711Dec 1, 2023
@Champagne @tchambers @[email protected] Okay! ​​
Show threadJanDec 1, 2023

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge On the protocol level we will see innovation and in the long run consolidation.

@evan describes it very well in the dot social interview with @mike AP is the foundation layer and we can build use-cases on-top and not inventing another protocol side-by-side. AP is here, it works, just use it.

Show threadeestileib (she/hers)Dec 1, 2023

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge

I look forward to being embraced, extended, and extinguished.

That's my kink!

Show threadKartik AgaramDec 1, 2023
@tchambers @[email protected] Feels copacetic with my pinned post on my profile.

RE: https://lethallava.land/notes/9gp5hypoklkeflav
Kartik Agaram (@akkartik)

Add more resilience to your software tools, people! I joined Mastodon in 2018, the Tildeverse in 2020, Lemmy in 2022, Calckey in 2023. Monopolies won't break themselves, each of us has to be willing to think different, try out new things.

Lethal Lava Land
Show threadwilliam.maggosDec 1, 2023

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge

the #fediverse structure is like a great idea whose time has come, but it destroys the entire concept of turning money into influence. they can't deny the former, but their entire business is built on the latter. they (#nostr, #bluesky, add in #threads too, @minds before them) are desperately trying to reconcile these facts through some kind of new technology. but they can't.

the medium is the message.

Show threadMatej 🐙Dec 1, 2023
@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge
I am coming from Nostr and working on something that would hopefully be even better than bridges 🤞
Show threadTim ChambersDec 1, 2023

@matej_svancer @activitypubblueskybridge

👀 Do tell.

Show threadDamon OutlawDec 3, 2023
@matej_svancer @tchambers @[email protected] very interesting 👀
Show threadMatunosDec 1, 2023
@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge but hear me out: those birds at the beach need to eat too
Show threadDr. Dan KillamDec 1, 2023
@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge I totally agree with this sentiment, and I hope we have a sea of little turtles to chose from in 100% interoperable fashion. So that we can make our own choice about which turtle to ride!
Show threadmaybeanerdDec 1, 2023

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge "another approach" , also called "disregarding the standard by w3c"

Sure, build what you want, but this is not zero sum, that's right - this harms the entire federation movement
standards aren't made to compete

Show threadJoe Fabisevich Dec 1, 2023

@maybeanerd @tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge Not trying to be contrarian but there's a large corpus of competing standards leading to technological progress and innovation. (IMAP vs. POP, Bluray vs. HD-DVD, even TCP/IP emerged out of the protocol wars* .)

ActivityPub is a very good spec, but AT has brought some very good ideas to the table, ideas that probably wouldn't have been considered before if there weren’t other standards to suggest other ideas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

Protocol Wars - Wikipedia

Show threadTim ChambersDec 1, 2023

@mergesort @maybeanerd @activitypubblueskybridge

I'd agree completely. ActivtyPub needs to get seemless and standardized about how to move acocunts from one server to another, for example, and to support domain names as account names easily.

Show threadErlendDec 2, 2023
@mergesort @maybeanerd @tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge The difference is that Activitypub is already competing against the current, locked, social media landscape, where all the money is. So AT splitting up that little area, instead of working to improving AP, is just making the transition to open social media even harder. You see it with how people splitting between BS and AP services makes it even easier for Threads to dominate.
Show threadDamon OutlawDec 3, 2023
@havn @mergesort @maybeanerd @tchambers @[email protected] I disagree & we also need to be honest here about the culture. These people were paid to do a job and did consider AP but out of sheer principle people would’ve have adopted their implementation of AP due to Jack Dorsey and Bluesky not being a nonprofit. They weren’t paid and given money to build something people wouldn’t use. Also why no mention of Nostr? People are building bridges thus I don’t see it making it easier for Threads to dominate. Threads will dominate by sheer numbers. We need to offer a better culture and better experiences which should entice Threads users to migrate their accounts.
Show threadAmy 🇹🇭🏳️‍⚧️Dec 1, 2023
@tchambers By the way, when do you expect BlueSky bridge to be up and running (as in, when do you think they'll open up their federation)
Show thread-> @haileys.questDec 1, 2023
@AmyIsCoolz @tchambers Sometime next year. I want to say first half? It's on a Bluesky blog post somewhere.

edit: the official word is "early next year."
2023 Protocol Roadmap | AT Protocol

Show threadTim ChambersDec 1, 2023

@AmyIsCoolz See here:

https://snarfed.org/2023-11-27_re-introducing-bridgy-fed

Appears to be "months."

cc: @snarfed.org

Re-introducing Bridgy Fed

Hi! I’m Ryan. I’ve been building social network bridges and related tools for over 12 years, including Bridgy, which connects personal web sites and blogs to centralized social networks…

snarfed.org
Show threadkcǃDec 1, 2023
@tchambers very excited for the day when I can freely read posts from friends in ‘all’ the social networks while being able to stay on Mastodon where I enjoy it best! Hopefully that day comes soon
Show threadTim ChambersDec 1, 2023
@exkclamation Same 👍
Show threadGatekeeper..Dec 1, 2023
@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge
Fuck Jack the Nazi, we don't need but 1 thing. For Twitter to fold.
Show threadPeter Toft JølvingDec 2, 2023

@tchambers
@activitypubblueskybridge

Say what you will about Dorsey and Bluesky, but I have tremendous respect for Paul. His earlier work in the DAT ecosystem and his own CTZN was some of the most interesting to follow I've encountered in a long while.

Show threadLegalQuiltsDec 2, 2023

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge I saw bluesky was talking federation and was actually happy aabout that.

I started a bluesky account, but if they federate, I can drop it and just stay here.

Show threadDavid FleetwoodDec 3, 2023
@tchambers @[email protected] While I get the sentiment, I'm never again rooting for techbros or cryptobros to have any sort of control over social anything. So no, nostr/bluesky can die in a fire. If anyone has alternatives to AP that are also open source, community driven then sure, I hope they also succeed.