37/ REMINDER: I can't even start to read all your replies after this hectic morning. I'll read later, 100s of them to catch up on. Patience.
Moving on.
Klasfeld:
Trump:
"They took 10,000 feet per floor, and they went times three. But they didn't take out elevator shafts and different things."
38/ Klasfeld:
AG's counsel moves on to Mar-a-Lago:
He shows Trump language describing it as an "exclusive private club."
Asked if that was true, Trump responds: "Yes."
(Whether it's a club or a residence is a key issue in the case.)
The financial statements also notes that Mar-a-Lago is wholly owned by a limited liability company.
39/ Klasfeld:
Asked whether he now believes Mar-a-Lago is worth $1.5 billion, Trump responds: "I think between a billion and a billion-five."🙄
Back to Rubin:
State attorney Kevin Wallace asks Trump about his involvement in the 2021 statement of financial condition. Trump says his focus at that time was on China and Russia and "keeping our country safe," 👉🏼drawing some laughs from the courtroom.👈🏼
Wallace reminds him he wasn't president in 2021. (Trump left office on Jan. 20, 2021.)
40/ Klasfeld:
NYAG's counsel confronts Trump with the deed stating that "the Club and Trump intend to forever extinguish their right to develop or use the Property for any purpose other than club use."
Trump parses: "'Intend' doesn’t mean we will do it."
(That remark may rank up there in the annals of presidential testimony with Clinton's: "It depends on what the definition of what 'is' is.)
41/ [Me: Trump "believes".... He "believes" people have a right to do lots of things... that are illegal/unethical. Nice try.]
Klasfeld:
Trump:
"I don't think so. It says 'intends.'"
If someone wanted to change it later, Trump says, "I believe they would have the right to do it."
42/ Rubin:
Wallace, state atty, handed Trump “deed of development rights” that bound Trump to leave MAL as private club. Trump said he intended to “forever extinguish” his rts to develop or use property for anything other than club use, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t change his mind.
I would bet good $ that the counterparty to this deed of conservation & preservation easement, the Natl Trust for Historic Preservation, has a very diff position about the legally binding nature of this doc
43 Rubin:
As Wallace is recounting now, the deed prohibits the construction of new buildings as well as the renovation of the interior of the mansion in a way that would make it inhabitable as a single-family home.
44/ [Me: Trump uses that "bravado" excuse a lot, doesn't he? Psst. Doesn't work]
Klasfeld:
Trump is shown an interview of him saying that "the Mar-a-Lago Club is a great success. It will forever be a club."
He says he said it as "bravado," not "legal intent."
Asked if he got tax benefits from it being a club, Trump answers yes.
45/ orden:
Though Trump has offered some asides and long-winded answers during the post-break testimony, he has been sticking to responsive answers more than he did before the morning break. [Me: Someone yelled at him during break to STFU]
46/ NBC's Chloe Atkins:
BIG MOMENTS from Trump's testimony so far 👇
Kevin Wallace, a lawyer for the AG's office, asked Trump about the appointment and acceptance of trustees, and in response, he said, "You and every other Democrat … coming after me from 15 different sides … all haters."
47/ Rubin:
Tump insists nothing has to be done to convert MAL to a single-family home. He also recalls the “very large and beautiful” ballroom at Mar-a-Lago was built by him, notwithstanding the deed. “This property is more valuable with that building on it!” he testifies.
“I personally would never change it,” but if his children want to change it, for example, it would be their right, Trump says.
👉🏼Trump concedes👈🏼 that they pay less taxes because of Mar-a-Lago’s designation as a private club.
48/ REMINDER: There is some redundancy in my posts bc reporters have diff takes on same facts. Kthxbye.
Klasfeld:
Questioning turns to Trump's property in Aberdeen.
49/ Orden:
"Aberdeen is the oil capital of Europe, very rich..." Trump says, at which point, 👉🏼the judge interjects: "Irrelevant!"👈🏼
Trump adds softly, "It is." [Me: He always does this. Has to have the last word. His base loves it]
50/ Via Forbes' Chase Peterson-Withorn
"And different things" includes an entirely separate penthouse belonging to someone else. And, by the way, Trump is making it sound like he wasn't aware, but he spent two hours personally telling me his apartment was 33,000 square feet and took up all of the top 3 floors...
re: Trump:
"They took 10,000 feet per floor, and they went times three. But they didn't take out elevator shafts and different things."
51/ [Trump doing caricature of himself is perversely amusing]
Klasfeld:
Trump:
"Aberdeen is a very rich place. It's an incredible piece of land, and it may be the greatest golf course ever built."
52/ Klasfeld:
Justice Engoron tells the NYAG's counsel that he's following his lead, and if he wants to let the witness "ramble" on with "unresponsive" answers, he'll do that.
🤦🏻♀️Kise defends what he describes as Trump's "brilliant" response.🤦🏻♀️
[Me: Kise: "We're ALL Trump now! Weeeee!"]
[Me:Trump, doing his impression of Trump:]
Trump:
"I have a lot of money, a lot more money than you thought."
Orden: Trump: "I’m not a windmill person."
53/ Klasfeld:
Are you aware of any valuations on the statements of financial condition from 2017 through 2021?
Trump:
"I'm worth billions of dollars more than the financial statements" — and anything "off" would be "non-material."
(The judge rejected materiality arguments before trial.)
54/ [Me: So much for Trump getting more succinct after the break. Nope. We knew that could never last]
Klasfeld:
Trump returns to the "disclaimer clause" and "worthless statement clause," in a lengthy monologue — again, an issue decided against him before trial and brought up apropos of nothing.
55/ Rubin, next few posts:
Wallace has moved on to Trump properties abroad, specifically the Aberdeen development in Scotland. The supporting data spreadsheet presented by the attorney general's office reflects that the valuation as of June 30, 2014, had jumped by roughly $250 million over the prior year.
As of 2014, Trump affirms he had not yet built a second golf course; rather, he testifies, “l am building it now.”
56/ He digresses once again, declaring the Scotland property is "one of the greatest pieces of land I have ever seen."
Wallace refocuses Trump, forcing admissions that between 2013 and 2014, he did not build another golf course, hotel or even homes. Wallace states plainly, “I’m focused on how we got a $245 million increase between 2013 and 2014.”
57/ Wallace later returns to the statement of financial condition, which refers to 1,486 homes, only 500 of which are described as single-family homes. The state attorney asks Trump to confirm that the number in the "backup data does not match the number of homes in the statement of financial condition."
Trump suggests it’s like a painting; the land is there, but “you can do what you want to do.”
[Me: Huh?]
58/ Even worse, Wallace asked Trump to admit that in 2014, because of wind farms that had been put in, then-Trump Org. CFO Allen Weisselberg told Scottish regulators that they did not intend to develop the property further.
When asked as of today whether he has yet to build homes at Aberdeen, Trump doesn't say yes; instead, he says “there’s nothing wrong” with holding on to that piece of property.🤭
59/ Back to Klasfeld:
Trump, to the AG's counsel Kevin Wallace:
"People like you go around to try to demean me, and try to hurt me." 🎻 #victimhood
Wallace tells the judge he won't move to strike because he has a lot of ground to cover.
After Trump repeats his talking points about the disclaimer clause, Wallace tells him he already said that.
"I'm trying to make you understand it," Trump replies. [Me--Narrator: The prosecutors understand it all too well, Defendant Trump]
60/ Rubin for next few:
Wallace asks Trump if he stands by the valuations of all other assets in the 2014 statement of financial condition (aside from the Trump Tower triplex apartment.)
Trump deflects, insisting that it’s been a long time since he looked at them. He says that he is worth billions more than the AG thought. Any overvaluations would be non-material, Trump maintains, before also acknowledging he hasn’t looked.
61/ Trump returns to his pet issue: the “worthless statement” clause that disclaims responsibility & insists that anyone receiving it must do their own due diligence and analysis.
Trump: “If there was a mistake, it was non-material; but even if it was material, we have a disclaimer clause. I never got too involved w these statements bc that clause is on pg 1, as you well know; that’s why we shouldn’t be having a case here..." More...
62/ Trump contd: "That’s a clause every court in this country holds up except this particular judge.”
Wallace then asks whether it is Trump’s position that the statements were in fact “worthless,” which Trump also resists. “People like you try to demean me and hurt me,” he hurls at Wallace, and then he attacks AG James, too.
63/ Rubin, cont'd... Trump's playing to his base bigly here.
“I think she is a political hack; she used this case to try to become governor…. this is a disgrace. All you have to do is read the legal papers and the scholars. This is a political witch hunt, and I think you should be ashamed of herself.”
The question was solely about whether he agreed with the AG office's position that “the statements of financial condition were overstated."
64/ [Me: Wow... SO wanting headlines, SO wanting to distract from his guilt, SO playing to his violent base]
👉🏼Trump yells moments later that Engoron "ruled against me before he knew anything about me. He called me a fraud, and he didn’t know anything about me. ... The fraud is on the court; not on me."
Trump is equally furious about Wallace’s questions, which are exploring why Mar-a-Lago is assessed differently for tax purposes than it is valued in Trump’s statements of financial condition.
65/ Klasfeld:
Trump: "Every court in the United States has upheld it," referring to the disclaimer clause.
He invokes legal scholars who purportedly agree with him. "It's disgraceful," he says, referring to case.
Trump says of the NYAG: "I think that she's a political hack."
He says that the NYAG used this case to try to become the governor and to successfully become attorney general.
(Trump lost political motivation arguments before trial.)
66/ Klasfeld:
Habba objects: "Asked and answered."
Engoron: "No, it hasn't been asked and answered. It's been asked. It hasn't been answered."
Trump monologues on the disclaimer clause.
Judge: If you want to learn about the disclaimer clause, read my opinion — for the first time.
Trump: You’re wrong about the opinion.
Trump: "I think it’s fraudulent the decision. The fraud is on the court."
67/ Klasfeld for the next few:
Trump rails on about the "fraudulent" decision, claiming Engoron believed a political "hack" over him, referring to the NYAG.
Wallace: "Are you done?"
👉🏼Especially given his repeated warnings earlier this morning, the judge has given remarkable latitude for all of this.
68/ Q: Who from the Trump Org was responsible from detecting fraud?
A: Everybody.
Trump:
"Anybody sees something going wrong, come see me about it directly."
Asked if anyone did that, Trump responds in the affirmative, and the AG's counsel asks for an example. Trump responds to with a broad generality.
69/ Trump:
"Come to see management, but come to see me directly. I don't want that going on."
This is in response to Trump Org's engagement letter with Mazars, which held management responsible for "preventing and detecting fraud."
Referring to the document, Trump says: "I'd love to read this your honor. Can I do that?"
Engoron: "No, not at this point."
Trump: "Shock"
[Me, to Trump: 🖕 ]
70/ It might go without saying, but Trump's "shock" remark was said with mocking sarcasm.
Trump's shown an article by Forbes.
He scoffs: "Forbes. They're owned by China. Now, they sold it to Russia."
[Me, to Trump: 🖕. Forgive my redundancy. ]
71/ Still Klasfeld:
Trump, hammering home the point:
"I have very little respect for Forbes."
👉🏼(Forbes broke the news that Trump inflated the size of his New York penthouse and recently knocked him off the billionaires list.)
The AG's counsel plays an audio clip of the interview, which was mostly inaudible.
Kise asks if the judge made any of it out.
He didn't.
They move on. Asked if the barely audible convo refreshes his recollection of fact that he spoke to Forbes, Trump answers no.
72/ Rubin for next few:
Chuck Rosenberg examines 2 possible reasons for Trump rants
One possibility is that Trump is "trying to goad" Judge Engoron into saying something that could help Trump on appeal, Rosenberg said moments ago on MSNBC's "Andrea Mitchell Reports." For example, Trump's legal team could try to suggest the judge exhibited bias during the trial.
(more...)
73/ But Rosenberg noted that Engoron is "an experienced jurist” and it doesn't appear as though he's made any such statements.
Another possible reason for the rants: "It may just be that Mr. Trump is incoherent, that his answers make quite literally no sense."
At the end of the day, Rosenberg said, it's the judge who will determine the penalties for Trump.
74/ Klasfeld:
Wallace shows Trump evidence showing that 40 Wall Street ran a cash flow deficit of $8.7 million in March 31, 2015.
Trump says they made a lot of investments to the building.
"I spent a lot of money on fixing the building up."
75/ I'm not posting Klasfeld's screenshots, but you get the idea.
Klasfeld:
Trump, on NYAG Letitia James:
"She doesn't even know what 40 Wall Street is."
👉🏼NYAG is visibly cackling at the remark for a bit, then puts her head down to compose herself.
These two dots show the NYAG's office in relation to 40 Wall Street.
(They're right next to each other.)
76/ Via Emptywheel:
I hope to hell Jack Smith has a witness on hand watching this...
All very predictable. But it has to be accounted for.
77/ [Me: Some of my fave words: "Trump concedes.."]
Klasfeld:
Q: "Mr. Trump, are you the one who told a reporter for the Wall St Journal that there was a $600 million appraisal for 40 Wall S?
Trump says he doesn't remember something from 12 years ago.🤭
AG's counsel shows email from Don Jr. to Trump Org execs on 1/22/12, which says, in part, "djt told [the reporter] the 600 [number] so he will be happy if that gets printed."
🤭Trump concedes he was the "djt" his son referred to in the email
78/ Via MSNBC site, Jordan Rubin:👀
Normal witnesses don’t try to take papers from their pockets and then try to read them from the witness stand. But we got another reminder of how this is not a normal trial and how this isn’t a normal witness on the stand.
Unsurprisingly, Judge Engoron denied Trump’s attempt to do this — because it’s not a thing.
LUNCH RECESS
79/ LOVE. 🔥
Via Hayley Miller:
The court is now in recess for lunch until 2:15 p.m. ET.
James, the New York attorney general, seized on the opportunity to take a jab at Trump, seeming to mock the former president's claim that she "doesn't know what a 40 Wall Street is," referring to one of his Manhattan properties.
80/ Heads up.
Klasfeld:
The AG's attorneys return to court.
81/ Via Jordan Rubin:
After a rough morning in court, should we expect a disciplined Trump to emerge in pm session?
OK, the q answers itself. But we got some evidence that further confirms the obvious.
Trump took to Truth Social site during break [Me: see my earlier toot]
...obviously judge is there to hear what parties have to say. But judge tk Trump to task for his meandering testimony that didn’t answer the q's asked of him — key context that's missing from Trump’s social media post.
82/ Thank you all for remembering to add "Not for Laffy" in your responses. It really helps.
Also, remember: I have to leave a little early, so I'll add whatever there is left when I get back.
And thanks for all the kind words.
Okay, back to the salt mines.
LIE (vs "live") thread continues.
83/ Via Jordan Rubin:
Asked during the break if she’ll urge Trump to answer questions more concisely after a rambling morning of testimony that drew Engoron’s ire, Trump lawyer Alina Habba said she wouldn’t try to limit her client’s free speech.
To be sure, Trump’s free speech rights aren’t at issue here. A trial witness doesn’t have the right to answer a lawyer’s questions however they want to. For better or worse, judges are largely in control of managing that process.
84/ Klasfeld:
We're back.
NYAG's counsel Kevin Wallace shows Trump a piece of evidence related to a loan agreement, attached to an email.
Trump's signature is on the document.
85/ Lisa Rubin for next few, re earlier:
During the lunch break, a colleague less steeped in the minutia of this case asked me whether the AG’s team is scoring any points, given how often Trump has digressed or ranted. Indeed, they have.
They have shown, for example, that despite having no memory of telling a Wall Street Journal reporter that a particular building was valued at $600 million, a contemporaneous email from his son showed he, in fact, did exactly that.
90/ Klasfeld:
Under the terms of the agreement, Trump had to maintain unencumbered liquid assets of $50 million.
Q: Do you believe you complied with this?
A: Yeah, I had a lot of cash.
I've had a lot of cash for a long time."
Under the agreement, Trump also had to maintain minimum net worth of $2.5 billion.
(In 2012, Trump's net worth was $1.8 billion, according to the AG's calculations, based on third-party appraisals.)
91/ Klasfeld:
Kise makes his usual statute of limitations objection on a term loan agreement from late 2012, which the judge, as usual, overrules.
👉🏼Trump smiles broadly at the ruling.
When it's entered into evidence, he shakes his head. Then, he inspects the document.
The agreement required the guarantor to supply "true and correct" financial statements.
92/ Andrew Weissmann is having an ALL CAPS moment:
AG GETS TRUMP TO AGREE THAT THE FINANCIAL STATEMENTS AND TRUMP'S PERSONAL GUARANTY WERE TO INDUCE BANKS TO LEND MONEY. KEY FACT FOR THIS FRAUD CASE
93/ Back to Klasfeld:
This is building a record for the heart of the AG's case—namely, alleging that Trump sent fraudulent statements of financial condition to banks & insurers to obtain favorable terms.
That's what the judge found on the top count, and what's to be determined on the other counts.
94/ Klasfeld:
In prior testimony, NYAG's office called att to covenants requiring that Trump maintain a certain net worth & liquidity to obtain favorable rates on loans.
Trump argues again it wasn't fraud bc the banks "got all their money back" and the loan was "paid off in full."
"The bank was thrilled," Trump testifies. "There was no loss of money. They made a lot of money, and everyone is trying to figure out why you're doing it. [...] I understand it. It's called 'politics.'" 😂🤦🏻♀️
95/ Klasfeld:
Context:
NYAG argues that Trump's fraudulent financial statements led banks to assume greater risk w lower interest rates than they otherwise would.
They argue this led the banks to lose $168M they would have made in interest.
96/ Klasfeld:
That's why the AG's counsel keeps showing Trump loan agreements that obligate Trump to:
* supply "true and correct" financial statements
* maintain a certain net worth (usually $2.5 billion
* maintain certain liquidity (under the heading unencumbered liquid assets)
97/ Klasfeld:
Trump:
"The net worth of me was far greater than the financial statements. So I don't know what you're getting at."🙄
he's just fucking dense... as long as someone made a penny and not the dime they were entitled to... it's all good.
@GottaLaff we know exactly how it works out when loans are created on fraudulent or absent guarantees of liquidity... you end up with the 2008 financial crash.
The "got away with it" argument is like saying there's no crime if you steal from a bank, go to Vegas to gamble, win big and then drop off a sack of cash a week later.
The crime happens at day 1 when you obtain the cash fraudulently no matter what you do with it.
The bank kept writing checks even after Trump defaulted on loans worth hundreds of millions and sued it. Now Congressional investigators are going to court to uncover the financial records behind their relationship.
@GottaLaff This is a gorgeous admission by Trump. Here's an analogy:
Imagine someone falsely tells you they desperately need to borrow $1,000 bec their elderly cat needs surgery.
They then take the $1,000 to a casino and bet it on black; luckily, the roulette ball lands on black, so they get $2,000 and pay you back.
When you learn they never even owned a cat, and instead used your money to gamble, is your response:
This also, by the way, is one of Sam Bankman-Fried's main arguments - I didn't steal investors' money, I borrowed it, and I made it all back, so everything's cool right? (although he hasn't proven that he made it all back). I was just using a similar analogy this weekend while talking about that case.
I love how the results of these polls always show some goofy results right at the end. It was rigged!! 😂
Trump is very big on "intent". He doesn't have to follow through, just show good faith that he will. And that's enough to justify the huge, inflated assessments (LIES). Everything is 'potential'.
NOT A QUESTION @GottaLaff
INFO about The judge's pre-trial ruling on the "worthless" clause.
"Thus, the 'worthless clause' does not say what defendants say it says, does not rise to the level of an enforceable disclaimer, and cannot be used to insulate fraud as to facts peculiarly within defendants' knowledge, even vis-à-vis sophisticated recipients."
via Adam Klasfeld
@GottaLaff GENERAL COMMENT; NO NEED TO REPLY. I cannot imagine the glee in the special council's offices and for Fani. The more he talks the worse he paints it for himself. He seems incredibly unable to talk coherently answering the questions with random word salad.
Does not have to testify in criminal trial, but he may not be able to stop himself.
@GottaLaff (Not for GottaLaff)
Question:
I am the former executive of a multi-million non profit organization. Every audit and every bank document I signed stated very clearly that I (“I” bolded and underscored) was solely responsible for the statement of financial position for the organization. To whit, the auditors used the info I provided and my statements to assure the accuracy of financial position.
Wouldn’t the same be attached to Trump documents?
@GottaLaff with the lunch break, how do you think #45 is doing?
It sounds here like he is in a hole and frantically digging.
#notforlaffy necessarily!
Not a question
[Pulls object from pocket]
"And here is Herschel Walker's badge. When I hold this I'm an officer"
Trump says he doesn't remember something from 12 years ago
in his words the greatest mind eveer... a jenuis....
Laffy
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